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[Mastersten]

After reading this thread something popped up in my head, a memory of a Dutch comedian called Daniel Arends and something he said in a show
(did my best to translate it but it may contain some mistakes. Please read it and dont skip it cause it's a long post)

“I feel that it’s a bit too easy to say “yeah but you can just be you cause we worked hard for that and why would you take away someone’s freedom”. That’s a bit too easy. Something that we lost due to being yourself is by example ‘having respect’, that it changed into leaving eachother alone and saying “if you just stay you, I just stay me and we just avoid eachother” and somewhere I got the feeling that having respect isn’t that, that having respect is going against something. That you can go to someone and say “you what you are and what you do and believe, I find that extremely annoying and extremely childish and it’s very very likely you think the same of me so what are we gonna do to solve this. But that takes extremely much effort. Going against something, that’s respect.”

That's all I have to say

 

[Aqua]

With the best of respect, how the admins and staff choose to run the forums is their prerogative, and if they feel your post doesn't contribute to the discussion and is in fact counter productive (the mere fact people found it insulting makes it counterproductive to the discussion at hand), that is their choice to remove it, this is how it has always been handled, this is how it should always be handled, this is how it will always be handled.

Being removed from a discussion for not contributing really is nothing new - either on the internet or in reality.

well maybe a change in staff is in order?

 

[Malcovent]

well maybe a change in staff is in order?

I think you disregarded the entire latter part of my post where i pointed out that being removed from a discussion for not contributing is common sense that is practiced everywhere.

 

[jub-juberd]

With the best of respect, how the admins and staff choose to run the forums is their prerogative, and if they feel your post doesn't contribute to the discussion and is in fact counter productive (the mere fact people found it insulting makes it counterproductive to the discussion at hand), that is their choice to remove it, this is how it has always been handled, this is how it should always be handled, this is how it will always be handled.

Being removed from a discussion for not contributing really is nothing new - either on the internet or in reality.

Making what is and is not 'a contribution to the discussion' entirely at the Moderator's digression makes the whole idea which posts to remove arbitrary.

 

[Malcovent]

Making what is and is not 'a contribution to the discussion' entirely at the Moderator's digression makes the whole idea which posts to remove arbitrary.

And yet, surprisingly it wasn't. The post in question contributed nothing - and thus, was correct to remove.

More to the point, all staffing calls are subjective calls, so this point somewhat null. In this case, the post in question got put to the highest staff member (the community admins), who agreed - making this decision non-discretionary.

 

[Aqua]

I think you disregarded the entire latter part of my post where i pointed out that being removed from a discussion for not contributing is common sense that is practiced everywhere.

I mean, my opinion is we should move away from minecraft, yeah I said it in a joke-y sense, but it's still an opinion. And that thread was how should we make Solitude better, and my contribution to that is stop solitude and make a new gmod server, preferably deathrun.

 

[Malcovent]

I mean, my opinion is we should move away from minecraft, yeah I said it in a joke-y sense, but it's still an opinion. And that thread was how should we make Solitude better, and my contribution to that is stop solitude and make a new gmod server, preferably deathrun.

"how should we make Solitude better"
"stop solitude"

is not a valid discourse for feedback. In fact it doesn't even remotely answer the question.

 

[Aqua]

"how do we improve this so people like it"
"remove it"

is not a valid discourse for feedback.

I'm gonna pretend your patronising underhand insult was actually a complement.
Yes I am. It was a joke, clearly. It's the principle as to which it was deleted is the problem.
Vatu is bias, therefore he shouldn't be a mod.

 

[Malcovent]

I'm gonna pretend your patronising underhand insult was actually a complement.

And yet you quoted no insult, you just quoted me quoting you.

Baffled .

 

[Enderfive]

With the best of respect, how the admins and staff choose to run the forums is their prerogative, and if they feel your post doesn't contribute to the discussion and is in fact counter productive (the mere fact people found it insulting makes it counterproductive to the discussion at hand), that is their choice to remove it, this is how it has always been handled, this is how it should always be handled, this is how it will always be handled.

Sure, but that wasn't the only post that was deleted. Other, completely on-topic posts courtesy of myself and Aqua were also deleted, which is why Aqua went on to ask about it in the discord mod chat and that resulted in the back-and-forth between Vatu and the others, then resulting in the fallout today, where I along with Jivvi were demoted for behaviour deemed not suitable for a mod, as well as removing hunter's mafia perms.

I don't even understand the reason behind that last one, in a PM with Psycho I was told that a staff member shouldn't be critical of the community etc, and I got the impression that he simply doesn't want me and Jivvi wearing the forum mod banner, which is somewhat fine, I guess, but what the hell did Hunter do in any of this? It really feels like his only fault was being friends with us.


As I said, overall this isn't about specific incidents, it's about how some people think that because they have been given these powers, it's literally up to their discretion how they use those powers. It isn't. It may be in some other communities, but how many times have we heard the phrase "community-driven" from the admins? The staffing guide you wrote puts the community and the regular user first -- staffing with the consent of the community. In this particular case and some cases before that, it seems to me like Vatu has overstepped the boundaries of that consent because of his own personal biases against us. He doesn't like us, we don't like him, that's fine, but it's affecting his actions as a staff member and that shouldn't happen, not with him nor with any other staff member.

If the quote above is true, though, then just say that EscRes is an authortarian community from this day onward, that way we don't get so confused and don't start shit over this shit.

 

[Aqua]

And yet you quoted no insult, you just quoted me quoting you.

Baffled .

did you edit your post or am I going insane ;-;

 

[Mastersten]

It's the principle as to which it was deleted is the problem.
Vatu is bias, therefore he shouldn't be a mod.

demote people for trying to do the best for the community? That's a bit....harsh

 

[Aqua]

demote people for trying to do the best for the community? That's a bit....harsh

That's the entire argument "what's best for the community".

I've said this time and time again and nobody ever listens so I cba, you can view it in my reply to psycho's thread in the mod forums.

 

[Malcovent]

The staffing guide you wrote puts the community and the regular user first -- staffing with the consent of the community. In this particular case and some cases before that, it seems to me like Vatu has overstepped the boundaries of that consent because of his own personal biases against us.

I wrote the guide - and I'm telling you, I vetted his deletion, i vetted the response he made, I've discussed it with him, his response was fine. Regardless of what perceived slights you have. You've now kicked up a monumental amount of dust to basically voice that you think someone dislikes you, by citing an example of moderation powers that wasn't even an abuse.

 

[Enderfive]

I wrote the guide - and I'm telling you, I vetted his deletion, i vetted the response he made, I've discussed it with him, his response was fine. Regardless of what perceived slights you have. You've now kicked up a monumental amount of dust to basically voice that you think someone dislikes you, by citing an example of moderation powers that wasn't even an abuse.

Then tell me beforehand what is allowed and what isn't. There is not a single word on the ToS about off-topic posts, therefore I can conclude that I should be free to post them without fear of moderation, being called an asshole (which is a violation of the ToS) or getting the threat of a warning slammed over my head.

 

[Malcovent]

Then tell me beforehand what is allowed and what isn't. There is not a single word on the ToS about off-topic posts, therefore I can conclude that I should be free to post them without fear of moderation, being called an asshole (which is a violation of the ToS) or getting the threat of a warning slammed over my head.

This is a community forum, not a court of law - staff can remove your posts if they feel they don't contribute. Providing that the overwhelming majority of the community have no problem with the action (and, talking to a few, most seem fine with it), then why can't they do it?

More to the point you've been here for four years - I'd be absolutely dumbfounded if you weren't aware that posting an inflammatory comment in a thread asking for contributions would result in a moderator removing it. You've had more than enough time to understand admins previous and current stance on issues as such, staff shouldn't need to create in-depth guidelines on what can very easily be drawn from common sense.

Speaking as one of the admins who helped right the terms of service for the website - It's a past relic that was never enforced and, was never updated. None of the admins ever checked it, and as far as i'm aware the only users who have checked it ended up being people who had some gripe to try take up with the admins (Hallo jub). Catching every etiquette of forum posting would create such an illegible ruleset that it's easier just to assume that everyone can use common sense and inform them when they aren't using common sense.

 

[Aqua]

Then tell me beforehand what is allowed and what isn't. There is not a single word on the ToS about off-topic posts, therefore I can conclude that I should be free to post them without fear of moderation, being called an asshole (which is a violation of the ToS) or getting the threat of a warning slammed over my head.

or all the things I quoted vatu saying... which ofc were deleted.

 

[Hunter]

To clarify, did you privately message psycho/admins discussing this specific incident, as i said in my post - yes you shouldn't have to given the recent drama but it's a small ask to save a ridiculous amount of hassle.

yes, this literally happened

how many incidents have happened thus far? psycho in particular has shown himself to be above the rules with the let's talk thing and now using his rank to demote moderators he has a personal issue with

the slow activity of the community has led the same few admins and such to remain in power for longer than in the past, where staff rotated in and out as the community aged

 

[jub-juberd]

And yet, surprisingly it wasn't. The post in question contributed nothing - and thus, was correct to remove.

More to the point, all staffing calls are subjective calls, so this point somewhat null. In this case, the post in question got put to the highest staff member (the community admins), who agreed - making this decision non-discretionary.

Again, "contributed nothing" is a loaded term that's showing that you're siding with the administrative team, Jack.

Yes, all staffing calls are subjective calls, as are pretty much any punishment given in the community due to the pretty malleable ruleset it has.

Putting it to the highest staff-member is again, due to staff members being human beings who can be influenced by experiences outside of the one thread they're on, entirely arbitrary. A pretty blinding reason behind the administrators that decided to remove the post doing so out of malice and not due to "a lack of contribution" is the fact that when non-contributing posts from the same user(s) were deleted before, the community administrator issued this as justification;

Granted, you guys are likely going to whinge on your status about how the Admins dealt with your shitpost -- and then come up with more shit to make it seem like you're funny or better than everyone else. Well, sadly, you're not. <adminsnip> Too far. Please consider what you are saying! -SirC

 

[Aqua]

You can go fucking cry to your parents or anyone else that gives a shit about you because I honestly have had enough of your shit on here.

That's pretty harsh, anybody who would stoop so low as to say that to another human being deserves to be banned ¯\_(' ˘ ')_/¯

 

[Malcovent]

Staff choice is, as always - upto the forum admin. Server staff have always been upto the server admins. If you're looking to complain about this i'm afraid you're five years too late.

Being brutally honest, so far in this thread we've summed up
- The post deleted was deleted within reason
- People were informed
- Admin demoted people because he didn't want them on his staff team.

I originally jumped in guns blazing looking for staff abuse to go rant at someone about but, I'm really not seeing anything other than nitpicking. If people are annoyed by the above, maybe you joined the wrong community?

Come to think of it - most online communities practice the above. Forum leaders picking their own staff and posts that don't contribute to discussions being removed are standard practice. I'm open to hearing suggestions for some that don't?

 

[Hunter]

If you guys genuinely are annoyed by the above, maybe you joined the wrong community?

1. that's my post not jub's
2. well it'll have been 5 years on the 23rd, so perhaps you're right.

maybe we did join the wrong community, malc, if this is how it's turned out
time to blow this popsicle stand y/n

 

[Aqua]

Legitimately don't know whether ur trying to be manipulative or trolling right now, malc.

I mean editing ur posts constantly to make it look like ur in the right as well as misquoting
people doesn't seem like a normal argument to me ¯\_(' ˘ ')_/¯

 

[Enderfive]

The post deleted was deleted within reason

posts
in plural
only one of them was a joke
it wasn't even my joke, i stole it, so i can't even claim the honors of starting this, as much as i'd like to
jesus

 

[Malcovent]

Right, I'm going to draw this to a close because there's not a huge amount to contribute anymore, we seem to have reached as much of an understanding as we are, I've jumped in looking for staff abuse and come out pretty much seeing a few people who want to rock the boat.

- Posts were deleted within reason
- Users were informed
- All of the above is within moderation power.
- The same people complaining of staff abuse are liking posts harassing people. .

If you have some issue with the above points, you're more than welcome to add me on steam - people in the past know I'm happy to remove/alter my posts if we reach some sort of understanding. I'm inclined to think that we won't.