The Economy of Madness - Game Complete!

[Stranger from Myst Island]

How does this change later in the game? Later in the game they have more information to better fake a claim and they can mold it to fit anything that happens mid-game, like any investigations.

Exactly this - while I don't think giving full names of roles would be a good idea yet, we can at least start to figure out what role names might look like.
I will say the fact that Mischief's role has a specific name attached to it seems kinda weird based on what Inffy & I have said about our role names, but IDK what that says about the alignment at this point. We do know that there are no vanilla roles in this game, but beyond that IDK if there's any pattern to the role names.

It reads to me like they're just saying 'massclaim gives us better information so that's the point of it', there's no argument weighing up the positives against the negatives or counter argument against the negatives, it's just a complete positive paint over massclaiming. I feel like Notty would've considered the drawbacks of losing our investigative roles that could also provide (possibly more accurate and useful) information, and therefore if they still thought massclaiming was the best way to go they'd have come up with counter arguments for the drawbacks and presented them, and here it's like that's just being ignored, to me.

I will say that I agree with this point - it does really bring back thoughts of last game, where Notty was trying to bait people into claiming to support her 3p claim even though she was mafia. Furthermore, the fact that she's advocated for a mass claim but hasn't actually revealed anything says a lot IMO. Nottykitten would you mind revealing at least a part of your role name as Inffy, Mischief and myself have done?

 

[Ltin]

I'm not really sure I like the idea of a massclaim on day 0.

At least from the perspective of "the mafia wont have time to think of a fake claim", it is probably fairly likely at least some of the mafia has a inherently neutral action, or at least one that can be easily twisted into a town role.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

I'm not really sure I like the idea of a massclaim on day 0.

At least from the perspective of "the mafia wont have time to think of a fake claim", it is probably fairly likely at least some of the mafia has a inherently neutral action, or at least one that can be easily twisted into a town role.

Yeah. My main concern is that, bearing in mind my experiences in the past, they'll have quite town-compatible roles, and ones which can't be cc'd by town ones. Possibly ones that could seem likely to have multiple of. If that's the case, they could easily be fine claiming them truthfully since they'd have little fear of being outed by it, and if the setup is designed in the way I worry, it won't hurt them. And if the role doesn't seem like it could have multiple of them, and they think it might be cc'd, then, as a lot of mafia probably do in massclaims, they could wait in offline mode until being one of the later claims to make sure they're not cc-ing anyone and claim their role as is then. Then we'd have outed all our PRs to the mafia but not gain much from it in terms of reads, so I'd think it wasn't worth it and we'd put ourselves into a worse position than if we didn't do it.

On the other hand the setup could be designed not like that, and massclaiming would make the mafia lie and get caught in those at some point in the game, and make the game a lot easier for us, and might be worth throwing away our PRs for, who knows.

Anyway, if we're massclaiming then it should be because we think it's likely we'll get a lot of good reads from it that's worth basically throwing any cop or doctor or blocker we have away for them. And rn I just don't have a reason to believe that. But I guess I don't have a *strong* reason to believe the opposite, so I'm not completely against the idea either, especially since it sounds interesting and fun to do, so maybe it's worth the risk after all.

 

[Omni]

I'm totally lost without a M&M trail to follow

 

[Infected_alien8_]

worth basically throwing any cop or doctor or blocker we have away for them.

we might have away for them*

(who knows maybe we don't even have any great PR roles so massclaiming wouldn't even hurt us much, but that feels unlikely)

 

[Ltin]

I'm totally lost without a M&M trail to follow

How about some LC Chocolates instead?

Sent from my TinPhone 3 using Tapatalk

 

[MoltenAshes]

How does this change later in the game? Later in the game they have more information to better fake a claim and they can mold it to fit anything that happens mid-game, like any investigations.

The thing is, many people sub-consciously tunnel on people, once they think someone's town early in the game, they still think that person is town regardless of what happens.

Mass-claiming earlier is worse than mass-claiming later, as people see claiming as a "town" thing to do.
"Later in the game they have more information to better fake a claim"
While this is true, I feel like based on this set-up, people can pretty easily mold into the crowd already claiming now, without looking too suspicious.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

The thing is, many people sub-consciously tunnel on people, once they think someone's town early in the game, they still think that person is town regardless of what happens.

Mass-claiming earlier is worse than mass-claiming later, as people see claiming as a "town" thing to do.
"Later in the game they have more information to better fake a claim"
While this is true, I feel like based on this set-up, people can pretty easily mold into the crowd already claiming now, without looking too suspicious.

If everyone claims then I don't think people would see it as a town thing to do anymore, if they actually would've done without a massclaim scenario, since then they'd have to think everyone in the game was town and I think they'd not have that tunnel vision anymore since they'd realize it can't be true

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Another thing I'm concerned about is if notty's what I see as a bias for wanting a massclaim is coming from scummy intentions

 

[Ltin]

Another thing I'm concerned about is if notty's what I see as a bias for wanting a massclaim is coming from scummy intentions

I feel like the last few games I have played (which were, admittedly, a while ago) notty has consistently pushed for massclaim irrespective of her alignment

 

[PokeSvorlds]

Exactly this - while I don't think giving full names of roles would be a good idea yet, we can at least start to figure out what role names might look like.
I will say the fact that Mischief's role has a specific name attached to it seems kinda weird based on what Inffy & I have said about our role names, but IDK what that says about the alignment at this point.

Are you suggesting a mass partial role name claim?

If mis' name is real then it implies to me that their character is a normal person with no real business job or connections. which sounds towny, but even babies can be mafia so who knows. (im joking but it really isnt too strong of a point)

 

[MoltenAshes]

If everyone claims then I don't think people would see it as a town thing to do anymore, if they actually would've done without a massclaim scenario, since then they'd have to think everyone in the game was town and I think they'd not have that tunnel vision anymore since they'd realize it can't be true

The thing is, even in a massclaim scenario, there's still people that aren't going to claim the majority of the time.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Are you suggesting a mass partial role name claim?

If mis' name is real then it implies to me that their character is a normal person with no real business job or connections. which sounds towny, but even babies can be mafia so who knows. (im joking but it really isnt too strong of a point)

Yeah I agree. Babies are mafia so Joe can be as well!

I mean I agree that it doesn't make her scummy since she said she doesn't have many powers, so to be given a regular name, to me, just suggests their role is quite vanilla like she said, and pedestrian, rather than in a certain career which would come with abilities for example. I don't think it makes her townie as such since she could be a vanilla mafia role but I don't think it makes her scummy imo

 

[Infected_alien8_]

The thing is, even in a massclaim scenario, there's still people that aren't going to claim the majority of the time.

I think that's unlikely personally since it'd just lead them to be suspicious for not claiming and I think they'd worry about that. If anything I think some townies might lie about their role since they think it's better that way, which could cause some issues potentially, but I don't think it's likely people would just outright refuse to claim

 

[Infected_alien8_]

By the way Timdood3 when I said my <o> said ender was scum, what did you initially interpret that as me saying?

 

[Stranger from Myst Island]

By the way Timdood3 when I said my <o> said ender was scum, what did you initially interpret that as me saying?

To me <o> looks like you're holding your head with your hands like you have a headache or something.

 

[MoltenAshes]

I think that's unlikely personally since it'd just lead them to be suspicious for not claiming and I think they'd worry about that. If anything I think some townies might lie about their role since they think it's better that way, which could cause some issues potentially, but I don't think it's likely people would just outright refuse to claim

If you think town would lie about their role when we mass-claim, then it's probably not a good decision to do so.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Going to bed now

Also I should probably clarify that my role name isn't actually "dodgy", that was just a word I used in place of the actual word, in case that's important

 

[Nottykitten]

"This is just an excuse" reads to me like an accusation since why would I just be using it as an excuse as town, surely I'd be saying what I genuinely think, and I think Notty would realize that. And yet there's no attempt at pushing on me or voting for me or anything, even though her accusation reads to me as quite confident.

Its an excuse because you cower away at the 1% chance there is an RID killer, which even if there is doesn't have any impact other than a normal SK. Town can have bad reasoning aswell which hurts the town so I pointed it out.

It's a sarcastic comment and just feels a bit aggressive and I don't get where that came from? I dunno, it weirded me out a bit but maybe I'm reading it wrong

It comes from you pulling out trash excuses.

It reads to me like they're just saying 'massclaim gives us better information so that's the point of it', there's no argument weighing up the positives against the negatives or counter argument against the negatives, it's just a complete positive paint over massclaiming. I feel like Notty would've considered the drawbacks of losing our investigative roles that could also provide (possibly more accurate and useful) information, and therefore if they still thought massclaiming was the best way to go they'd have come up with counter arguments for the drawbacks and presented them, and here it's like that's just being ignored, to me.

It probably reads like that because its exactly what im saying. Its very unlike you to ignore how much the reads and vibes of players can bring to the table.

Ignoring the fact I have already argued against some trash thrown around arguments, you say I haven't weighed positives vs negatives and thats because the negatives are little and sparce, if not just fearmongering. The only worthwhile argument is that our investigative roles might die early which im pretty sure has only been brought up in your post here. Also you're assuming we have no way to protect them and also are again saying that vibes and reads arent the way to go.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Its an excuse because you cower away at the 1% chance there is an RID killer, which even if there is doesn't have any impact other than a normal SK. Town can have bad reasoning aswell which hurts the town so I pointed it out.

Quote me talking about an RID killer. That's never been part of my arguments.

It comes from you pulling out trash excuses.

.

Except my excuses aren't trash, like you yourself have just said:

The only worthwhile argument is that our investigative roles might die early which im pretty sure has only been brought up in your post here.

And no, that's literally the point I've been making all along, and this isn't the first time I've brought it up.

It probably reads like that because its exactly what im saying. Its very unlike you to ignore how much the reads and vibes of players can bring to the table..

Where have I ignored how much reads and vibes of players can bring to the table? What has that got to go with whether I support massclaiming? Can I not make reads and vibes without a massclaim? Is a massclaim garunteed to get us reads and vibes or is it just about getting everyone's claims which may or may not all be believable?

Ignoring the fact I have already argued against some trash thrown around arguments, you say I haven't weighed positives vs negatives and thats because the negatives are little and sparce, if not just fearmongering. The only worthwhile argument is that our investigative roles might die early which im pretty sure has only been brought up in your post here. Also you're assuming we have no way to protect them and also are again saying that vibes and reads arent the way to go.

What negatives are you even talking about that are little, sparse and fearmongering? The only downside I've even mentioned is the one that you're saying is a worthwhile argument so what other arguments have you argued against then?

How are we supposed to protect our PRs when the doctor outs themselves and gets killed?

How am I saying reads and vibes aren't the way to go?

Vote notty

 

[ChocoFox]

—— Quarterly Economic Update ——
Deadline: 14 April 2019 UTC 22:00.
​

Nottykitten - 1 (Infected_Alien8_) [B-10]
PokeSvorlds - 1 (Nottykitten) [B-10]
Timdood3 - 1 (PokeSvorlds) [B-10]

With 21 players, it takes 11 votes to bankrupt and 11 votes to no-bankrupt.

If no option reaches the required number of votes when a deadline hits, the day will end as a no-bankruptcy.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Like in my 2nd and 3rd post on the topic of massclaiming, talking to you directly and clarifying my position, I say my argument about outing the PRs and whether it's worth it or not (I don't explicitly mention the PR death risk in my very first post about it, I just mention "risk" without elaborating)

I'm not saying there might be a role that makes it not as worth it, I'm saying the massclaim might not actually gain town anything and just out all of our PRs to mafia, in which case it wouldn't be 'normal great' it'd be bad

If we massclaimed in TPB for example, from memory the mafia could just claim all their roles as they were and it'd not make us CC anyone and we'd not have to lie

If this game is anything like that then what's the benefit of massclaiming?

I'm talking about The Pearled Bridge, which was alisha's game. Like I said, last game was mostly by Choco and alisha didn't have much input into it


It'd give us something more solid to make reads with yeah but it'd throw away our good abilities early on as well which would possible give us even solider (wow that's a word) reads, so it's whether you think the 'solid' stuff it'd give us to make reads with would outweigh that. In Alisha's only other game, I don't think it'd would've done provided the mafia told the truth about their roles, which we easily could've thought to have done since they seemed pretty townie and something the town could potentially have two of. Sure it's possible the mafia would decide to lie even though in reality it would've been fine for them to tell the truth, and then we'd maybe catch them out, but I don't feel confident enough of that happening to bank losing our powerful roles early to do that (especially now that I've pointed out how alisha's last game went)

Like I said though I'm not completely against it since it'd be interesting, I just don't particularly support it

 

[Infected_alien8_]

(And then I give my points about why I don't think it's that likely that a massclaim would give us benefits that outweigh the risk of losing our PRs, by talking about past games. So that argument was being made bearing in mind the PR death argument acting as a drawback to massclaiming and us therefore needing a good benefit to outweigh that and past games making me worry we wouldn't get that outweighing benefit)

 

[Nottykitten]

Quote me talking about an RID killer. That's never been part of my arguments.

Not directly, but your 'Alisha would of gone out of her way to prevent massclaiming from being powerful' seems to imply it especially considering RID was brought up as an excuse to maybe not massclaim.

Except my excuses aren't trash, like you yourself have just said:

Fair enough, the RID excuse is trash which you haven't contributed to directly but feels heavily implied nontheless.

And no, that's literally the point I've been making all along, and this isn't the first time I've brought it up.

It is though, every other place you've danced around it by saying it outs PR's/abilities like in the post above but you've never explicitly mentioned you fear our investigative roles dying. I get that you probably mean the same but I just saw the argument for investigative roles dying and didn't remember someone explicitly saying this before.

Where have I ignored how much reads and vibes of players can bring to the table? What has that got to go with whether I support massclaiming? Can I not make reads and vibes without a massclaim? Is a massclaim garunteed to get us reads and vibes or is it just about getting everyone's claims which may or may not all be believable?

The part where a massclaim gives us a ton of information to get reads of and you're waving it away like it means nothing and we can easely do without it.

What negatives are you even talking about that are little, sparse and fearmongering? The only downside I've even mentioned is the one that you're saying is a worthwhile argument so what other arguments have you argued against then?

The stupid RID killer argument.

How are we supposed to protect our PRs when the doctor outs themselves and gets killed?

How am I saying reads and vibes aren't the way to go?

Clearly you are scared about PR's dying which means you think we won't be able to win with reads and vibes. (and ofcourse the info from all the PR's that don't die).

(And then I give my points about why I don't think it's that likely that a massclaim would give us benefits that outweigh the risk of losing our PRs, by talking about past games. So that argument was being made bearing in mind the PR death argument acting as a drawback to massclaiming and us therefore needing a good benefit to outweigh that and past games making me worry we wouldn't get that outweighing benefit)

The benefit is full transparency/information, forcing the Mafia to make fake claims and aside from getting reads off of that having our PR's act with that information for atleast a single night, unless you think they're all going to just die n1.

My rolename is The insurance __

 

[Omni]

Mm Notty a little aggressive on Inf I like that

vote Inffy