let's not explode [day 5 - GAME OVER (MAFIA WIN)]
- Thread starter Jivvi
- Start date
Mastersten
In Omnia Paratus
He was mafia templar or something
Enderfive
sarcasm incarnate
i'll post a writeup of why i'm voting infected and why i'm noy voting hunter when i get home from school, in 4-5 hours
if you can hold your torches and pitchforks until then, that'd be great
if you can hold your torches and pitchforks until then, that'd be great
Infected_alien8_
Garry's Mod Admin
Which is what he said after people pointed out that outing as mayor was anti-town. Sounds like an excuse to me.
In no way am I saying hunter = Mafia 100% sure no questions about it, but to me he is the most suspicious, and so if we have to vote anyone I'm voting who I think has the most chance of being Mafia, just as you did with ltin.
Ender if your reasoning is something along the lines of "targeted hunter and not me", I'll explain again to you and anyone agreeing with you that you were/are both suspicious to me, but hunter was moreso because he, in my eyes, had done more anti-town things prior to that, and hunter was the one with votes on him. If two people do something anti-town, one of them has done more anti-town than the other and already has two votes against him, the other I have town-read up until this point, has suddenly done one anti-town thing (the same thing as the other person) and has 0 votes against them, of course I'm going to vote the first person. And it's not like I completely ignored Ender being suspicious either; Notty pointed out that Ender was suspicious like 2 posts before me, and I said "I agree with Notty", then went on to discuss my opinion on hunter, concluded he was the most suspicious and voted him.
If what you're going to say is nothing to do with that then I'll prepare to defend myself from whatever points you believe/are trying to make others believe supposedly make me Mafia. But this whole thing is ridiculous in my opinion because all I've done is do exactly what others did with ltin, but with hunter instead. Heck I wasn't even alone in my actions, yet somehow I'm Mafia confirmed. I'll repeat what Hunter said earlier: at least one of the people trying to get me lynched is Mafia, taking advantage of this mess to kill me.
Infected_alien8_
Garry's Mod Admin
Wasn't completely "assuming" anything, was just writing a response to something which you may have planned to post something about to save you having to write it, but fair enough I'll wait, sorry.
Enderfive
sarcasm incarnate
Okay, I'll give the reasons I think Infected is (more likely than anyone else currently) guilty and then I'll move on to why I believe Hunter is not.
Infected is guilty scum and should hang for his crimes:
HE NEVER MAKES AN ACCUSATION BEFORE HE'S SURE TO HAVE SUPPORT
[page 3, post #65]
For a scum, this would serve two purposes:
a) it ensures higher potential for a lynch or at least sufficient support for said lynch. Scum knows who their allies are and who aren't, so when they see a suspicion or a bandwagon on someone not their ally that's about to be lynched, the logical thing for them is to seize the opportunity and get them lynched, because that helps their cause.
b) it ensures the possibility of falling back on those suspicions without penalty, since the player can always say, "I was only following the other players, it's them who started it!". This is beneficial for scum because that way, they always have a way out of a sticky situation. Sure, it's beneficial for a townie as well, but townies tend to not concern themselves with their own asses and rather try to hunt scum.
HE'S NOT TOWNLIKE IN HIS SUSPICIONS AND VOTES
This is somewhat a continuation of the other point I have against him, but not quite. Let's review the times he's voted or even pointed out a new suspicion of his.
*First, he says Aqua is a bit suspicious for reasons listed by Ooglie.
*He then proposes a no-lynch, after some others have proposed it as well.
*States that he believes Ltin to be a townie.
*Reinforces the belief that Ltin is a townie, right after that he votes him.
*When Notty points to Hunter, he says he's had a suspicion on Hunter all along and switches wagons to Hunter.
*I point out that I've been doing the same thing that he finds Hunter suspicious for, only even more aggressively. He doesn't mention me as suspicious in his next posts.
*I ask if I'm suspicious. No answer.
*I bring that inconsistency as a new reason why I believe he's possibly guilty. He immediately responds by saying I'm suspicious to him as well.
*Lots of caps lock and screaming about how Hunter is clearly guilty and he is clearly innocent, along with a healthy dose of ridiculing the other side's arguments to make them easier to attack, since, you know, he never actually shows why anything we've done is actually suspicious.
It's the bolded parts that are bothering me.
First question: if Ltin was a sure townie in your eyes, why did you vote him?
Second question: if you found Hunter suspicious all along, why didn't you say anything before others did?
Third question: if you found me suspicious as well, why did you not mention it before I attacked you?
This is not how a townie acts, any townie. It's possible, sure, but it's not logical in any way. First of all, according to Infected's own principle that he uses when attacking Hunter, one does not vote someone they believe to be a townie unless they're scum. Yet, earlier, that's exactly what he was doing himself. I'm not saying that I personally believe in that principle, but the main thing is, he does, at least according to himself. So now we've established that he only follows his principles when it suits his own goals. But why did he vote Ltin, then? It's as he said himself -- he wanted the day to be over and Ltin was a suitable target for a lynch. For consistency's sake, he reinforced the belief that Ltin was a townie, only to bandwagon on him in the very same post. That was possibly in order to be able to say "I told you so" when the following night was over and Ltin long revealed as a townie. Or it could have been that Ltin was his mafia buddy and Infected saw no other way to remain free of suspicion once the next day would roll by and Ltin was confirmed as a mafia.
Secondly, why did he vote Hunter in the very next post? Simple, he saw a chance to spare Ltin, a way out of his own fall into suspicion and a way to still have a considerably beneficial bandwagon. Note how he didn't even once react to Hunter's claim or seem to reconsider his vote, he just kept on pushing for the same "I had a gut feeling all along" reason. A civilian lynch is considerably more useful to scum than a drunk lynch, which is why he didn't reconsider the Hunter vote at all, whereas Ltin's drunk claim was enough to make him unvote.
Thirdly, a townie mentions their suspicions, even if they're gut based or someone else is in the limelight at the moment. Right from the moment others started voting Hunter, Infected developed a tunnel vision on Hunter, not listening to any arguments and responding only with "I had a gut feeling all along" and "Others say so too". The "voted un-cc'd drunk" thing is there too, but others voted Ltin as well and he never once mentions them, until I bring myself up as an example and ask for a reason why I'm not suspicious. Moreover, all the suspicions he supposedly had all along only come out when someone else mentions them first. Sorry, Inf, but I just don't buy it, it's way too convenient.
Bottom line is, his behaviour is not consistent with that of a townie and his own principles and reasonings for voting others are only valid when they're used by himself for his own goals, but never when they're used against him. It's possible that he's a townie, as it always is, but his actions and behaviour make him by far the biggest suspect in my eyes right now.
And now, the other part of my post, why I believe Hunter to be a townie.
HE'S CONSISTENT WITH WHAT I KNOW TO BE TYPICAL TOWNIE HUNTER BEHAVIOUR
Granted, this one's subjective and somewhat based on the other times I've played with him, but hear me out. Every single game I've played with Hunter he's been hyperactive, chaotic, annoying, downright confusing, never quite giving valid points, reasoned and well-explained points, always providing just enough that if you bothered to think about what he was trying to say, you might figure it out. He's also been town, every single time (or if there's been a time when he's been scum, I don't remember it).
This is how he plays. He doesn't play as a team, he plays as a single, individual player. He constantly comes up with new gambits to lure scum into a trap and he doesn't explain much, because he needs this information for himself to be able to figure things out for himself (and, obviously, the trap wouldn't work if he explained it). I've seen him make use of that exact same style in this game and all the other games he's been in and now that I'm used to it, I see how things he does are beneficial for himself (not always the town, because the town doesn't always understand, but through him they could become useful to the town as well). I might not always agree with every point he makes, but I can see how he, as a townie, might think that's the way to go.
When we consider the Mayor claim trap that he used on Ltin, then once he explained it, I could see why he, as a townie, did it. He saw an opportunity to push a potential scum into potentially revealing himself through potentially trying to seem too town-like. Ltin took the bait and Hunter revealed the trap. I can see how some of you might think it was only an excuse, but trust me, he pulls this shit all the time, especially in the beginning of a game.
When we consider the voting of Ltin after he had claimed and was un-cc'd, well, he wanted to lynch someone to increase the odds of lynching scum on the following days and a drunk was a better choice than a potential civ. Drunk doesn't have that much value for the Town and is, in comparison to the doc, the maven or any of the civilians, an expendable role. I see the logic behind that because I hold the same opinion.
...And for a final piece of evidence (wow, actual evidence in support of Hunter), I point your eyes to one particular post, again, which proves to me that he's more likely to be a townie than a scum:
[page 16, post #396]
So, for these reasons Hunter is innocent in my eyes and Infected is guilty.
tl;dr: go and read the damn thing
Infected is guilty scum and should hang for his crimes:
HE NEVER MAKES AN ACCUSATION BEFORE HE'S SURE TO HAVE SUPPORT
[page 3, post #65]
[page 14, post #328]I personally haven't got any big suspicions on anyone but in my opinion Aqua is a little bit suspicious because of what oog said about him voting himself as if to try a bit too hard to seem innocent and also because he didn't die n1 so something fishy is going on!But that could be completely wrong of course.
[page 14, post #346]
[page 16, post #391]
[page 20, post #478]
[page 22, post #535]
The FoSes and reasonings he gives to these FoSes are never his own, rather they are something that have already been used by other players before (or at least he thinks they have been used by other players before). And he doesn't fail to mention that in his posts, constantly referring to other people as the initial source of those opinions.
For a scum, this would serve two purposes:
a) it ensures higher potential for a lynch or at least sufficient support for said lynch. Scum knows who their allies are and who aren't, so when they see a suspicion or a bandwagon on someone not their ally that's about to be lynched, the logical thing for them is to seize the opportunity and get them lynched, because that helps their cause.
b) it ensures the possibility of falling back on those suspicions without penalty, since the player can always say, "I was only following the other players, it's them who started it!". This is beneficial for scum because that way, they always have a way out of a sticky situation. Sure, it's beneficial for a townie as well, but townies tend to not concern themselves with their own asses and rather try to hunt scum.
HE'S NOT TOWNLIKE IN HIS SUSPICIONS AND VOTES
This is somewhat a continuation of the other point I have against him, but not quite. Let's review the times he's voted or even pointed out a new suspicion of his.
*First, he says Aqua is a bit suspicious for reasons listed by Ooglie.
*He then proposes a no-lynch, after some others have proposed it as well.
*States that he believes Ltin to be a townie.
*Reinforces the belief that Ltin is a townie, right after that he votes him.
*When Notty points to Hunter, he says he's had a suspicion on Hunter all along and switches wagons to Hunter.
*I point out that I've been doing the same thing that he finds Hunter suspicious for, only even more aggressively. He doesn't mention me as suspicious in his next posts.
*I ask if I'm suspicious. No answer.
*I bring that inconsistency as a new reason why I believe he's possibly guilty. He immediately responds by saying I'm suspicious to him as well.
*Lots of caps lock and screaming about how Hunter is clearly guilty and he is clearly innocent, along with a healthy dose of ridiculing the other side's arguments to make them easier to attack, since, you know, he never actually shows why anything we've done is actually suspicious.
It's the bolded parts that are bothering me.
First question: if Ltin was a sure townie in your eyes, why did you vote him?
Second question: if you found Hunter suspicious all along, why didn't you say anything before others did?
Third question: if you found me suspicious as well, why did you not mention it before I attacked you?
This is not how a townie acts, any townie. It's possible, sure, but it's not logical in any way. First of all, according to Infected's own principle that he uses when attacking Hunter, one does not vote someone they believe to be a townie unless they're scum. Yet, earlier, that's exactly what he was doing himself. I'm not saying that I personally believe in that principle, but the main thing is, he does, at least according to himself. So now we've established that he only follows his principles when it suits his own goals. But why did he vote Ltin, then? It's as he said himself -- he wanted the day to be over and Ltin was a suitable target for a lynch. For consistency's sake, he reinforced the belief that Ltin was a townie, only to bandwagon on him in the very same post. That was possibly in order to be able to say "I told you so" when the following night was over and Ltin long revealed as a townie. Or it could have been that Ltin was his mafia buddy and Infected saw no other way to remain free of suspicion once the next day would roll by and Ltin was confirmed as a mafia.
Secondly, why did he vote Hunter in the very next post? Simple, he saw a chance to spare Ltin, a way out of his own fall into suspicion and a way to still have a considerably beneficial bandwagon. Note how he didn't even once react to Hunter's claim or seem to reconsider his vote, he just kept on pushing for the same "I had a gut feeling all along" reason. A civilian lynch is considerably more useful to scum than a drunk lynch, which is why he didn't reconsider the Hunter vote at all, whereas Ltin's drunk claim was enough to make him unvote.
Thirdly, a townie mentions their suspicions, even if they're gut based or someone else is in the limelight at the moment. Right from the moment others started voting Hunter, Infected developed a tunnel vision on Hunter, not listening to any arguments and responding only with "I had a gut feeling all along" and "Others say so too". The "voted un-cc'd drunk" thing is there too, but others voted Ltin as well and he never once mentions them, until I bring myself up as an example and ask for a reason why I'm not suspicious. Moreover, all the suspicions he supposedly had all along only come out when someone else mentions them first. Sorry, Inf, but I just don't buy it, it's way too convenient.
Bottom line is, his behaviour is not consistent with that of a townie and his own principles and reasonings for voting others are only valid when they're used by himself for his own goals, but never when they're used against him. It's possible that he's a townie, as it always is, but his actions and behaviour make him by far the biggest suspect in my eyes right now.
And now, the other part of my post, why I believe Hunter to be a townie.
HE'S CONSISTENT WITH WHAT I KNOW TO BE TYPICAL TOWNIE HUNTER BEHAVIOUR
Granted, this one's subjective and somewhat based on the other times I've played with him, but hear me out. Every single game I've played with Hunter he's been hyperactive, chaotic, annoying, downright confusing, never quite giving valid points, reasoned and well-explained points, always providing just enough that if you bothered to think about what he was trying to say, you might figure it out. He's also been town, every single time (or if there's been a time when he's been scum, I don't remember it).
This is how he plays. He doesn't play as a team, he plays as a single, individual player. He constantly comes up with new gambits to lure scum into a trap and he doesn't explain much, because he needs this information for himself to be able to figure things out for himself (and, obviously, the trap wouldn't work if he explained it). I've seen him make use of that exact same style in this game and all the other games he's been in and now that I'm used to it, I see how things he does are beneficial for himself (not always the town, because the town doesn't always understand, but through him they could become useful to the town as well). I might not always agree with every point he makes, but I can see how he, as a townie, might think that's the way to go.
When we consider the Mayor claim trap that he used on Ltin, then once he explained it, I could see why he, as a townie, did it. He saw an opportunity to push a potential scum into potentially revealing himself through potentially trying to seem too town-like. Ltin took the bait and Hunter revealed the trap. I can see how some of you might think it was only an excuse, but trust me, he pulls this shit all the time, especially in the beginning of a game.
When we consider the voting of Ltin after he had claimed and was un-cc'd, well, he wanted to lynch someone to increase the odds of lynching scum on the following days and a drunk was a better choice than a potential civ. Drunk doesn't have that much value for the Town and is, in comparison to the doc, the maven or any of the civilians, an expendable role. I see the logic behind that because I hold the same opinion.
...And for a final piece of evidence (wow, actual evidence in support of Hunter), I point your eyes to one particular post, again, which proves to me that he's more likely to be a townie than a scum:
[page 16, post #396]
That's four hours before the deadline, with the votecount before that being tied between Hunter and Ltin. What does he do? He switches his vote to infected, who at this point has no votes, and through that he makes himself to be the most likely candidate for a lynch just four hours before the deadline, a time when the votes are (usually) all but locked in. No scum would do that, because scum's main goal is to stay alive in order to be able to win the game. The only reason for him to do so is because he really is a townie and genuinely believes Infected to be guilty(er than Ltin), because chances are, with this unvote he just signed his own death. He didn't, but there was no reason to think he hadn't at the time he made the vote.
So, for these reasons Hunter is innocent in my eyes and Infected is guilty.
tl;dr: go and read the damn thing
Not done sifting through all the information in your post yet but I'd like to point out one thing.
I'm pretty sure a Civilian's role this game is to also stay alive as long as they can, seeing as:
- Civilian x4 – If all civilians die, the town loses.
Nottykitten
Nomnomnom kitteh!
I'd just like to say that any scum could do that, especially one that is as smart as Hunter.
It was getting pretty obvious Ltin wasn't going to gain more votes, Hunter needed a new lynch target or he'd be teast and Infected was the easiest one to start a bandwagon on. Not saying town members wouldn't do exactly the same, but just saying scum could easely aswell.
On another note what about that Aqua guy? Seems to follow the crowd and especialy Hunter.
#Unvote
#Vote Aqua
Enderfive
sarcasm incarnate
sure, but hunter was putting scumhunting above his own survival, so while he wasn't acting in a way you'd consider possible for a civ, he also wasn't acting in a way that would suggest in any way that he's scum, rather the opposite, that's the whole point
Enderfive
sarcasm incarnate
not when the deadline is so close
he had no guarantee of people other than aqua following him, yet he still put scumhunting before own survival
i'll acknowledge the small possibility of it being a scum gambit, but in that case it was a stupid one, since it relied too much on luck
Mastersten
In Omnia Paratus
Mesiah mesiah you lightened my path
#vote infected_alien8
Aqua
Does anybody remember laughter?
"follows the crowd" I literally started the argument against Inffy, the number one candidate for lynch atm.
Honestly if Inf flips mafia Ltin is 90% confirmed IMO, but I'm also a good 90% convinced ur mafia, whether inf flips it or not.