TNT for SMP?

[Pikmon2]

*TNT for SMP
(Wrote it wrong in title.)

I say, if we can get LAVA to SMP, we can get TNT. Now of course, after Lava gets out of beta so there won't be two beta's/projects at the same time. But I figure, with some plugins, this is possible. Now for all the weapons OTHER then tnt, its up in the air, as I'm no coder. But say making TNT have the same property of being on top of redstone for all the blocks. And for invisible walls/borders, you could set a server custon texture for a block not used for map making (say, emerald block.) And with lava having a map changing ability for rounds, it can be (I assume in at least one way) ported over for a TNT version. Now it would be missing the fancy hud like in WoM TNT, but don't think thats a big factor, as the browser version doesn't have it. And there are multiple shop plugins as well. I hope you see this as reasonable, and I hope it'll happen.

- Pikmon2

 

[Da Jinks]

I love this idea :)

 

[James81818]

While it is a good idea, it needs to be taken into account that blocktopia isn't made of money and with a new server just up, I don't think this would be likely, at least for a while( if it were possible though)

It's a great idea though!

 

[superstein]

If classic is down this would be good, but it would most likely require the coding ability of destroyer and I'm not sure he's that good at coding premium because TNT is in Python, and premium is in (Java?). But atm I believe this idea has been rejected, but for later I'd love this when the sadly inevitable end of classic will come.

 

[0x3c0]

Fixed the title of your post for you.

We've discussed this a fair bit in the staff chat, particularly with what might appear to be a trend of the community's classic servers moving over to premium. As the idea stands at the moment, we've decided against it, for a number of reasons.

The primary reason is the skill and effort required. The current server is the result of at least two years' work. While not all of that has been development time, there's a lot of experience with classic that we'd be leaving behind. You've provided one (albeit optional) example of something which hasn't yet appeared in Minecraft Premium. There are likely others.

A little history might prove useful too. It's reasonably well-known that the TNT Wars server software is a heavily-modified fork of iCraft. destroyerx1 was in fact one of the developers of iCraft, and as such knows the codebase well enough to feel confident to make changes to it. A new server would mean a new codebase. I wouldn't feel immediately confident making changes to any new codebase, and it'd be unfair of anyone to expect destroyer to work with his current level of skill and experience on that new server.

This is just the backend code for the server - I've not even begun to look at the protocol. Safe to say, such a massive project would be a lot of work, far beyond what would be reasonable to demand of a volunteer.

All of this is assuming that we completely build a new server from scratch. A quick search indicates that there are existing Python implementations of Survival servers, so such a thing would be possible in theory. These projects are either on hiatus, or work with old versions of the map format, so reusing them would likely be difficult. Many servers (I dare say most servers) will use something like Bukkit, and use various plugins. This also has issues - consider the maze that we'd be walking into with no specialist knowledge of: indestructible blocks, shops, upgrade trees and weapons. These aren't trivial things.

Hypothetically though: if we had a set of plugins dropped into KingSam's inbox tomorrow, what would happen? Would the server work? It's difficult to know without trying, but I doubt it. We'd just be another PvP server. Granted, there are PvP servers in Classic Minecraft, but they aren't nearly as polished from what I've seen of them. With PvP being a fundamental part of Survival, the number of servers dedicated solely to that is substantial. Fair play to them, they're doing something which players like. My problem with us moving to something like that is that it isn't unique. Why would somebody use a pistol or a shotgun to kill somebody on our server when they can just go on another and shoot people to their heart's content?

Thanks primarily to Razinao's work, TNT also has multiple game modes. These are all done by the use of command blocks (check out our wiki page, he's done a lot of the documentation for them). If we moved to Premium, we might lose the ability to script them altogether; we'd almost certainly need to migrate them or rewrite them somehow. A brief Google indicates that while scripting's available, it's in Lua. I don't know of any core TNT staff who can write Lua scripts, and I'd never want them to have to learn somewhere that your gameplay would be spoiled.

Those are some of the (not so) brief reasons why the idea's been denied in the past. The primary reason is that moving to SMP would take us from a relatively privileged position of being one of the most established Minecraft TNT servers to just being another PvP server with a few more weapons.

 

[Thymos]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I have already suggested this a thousand thousand times to KingSam, and as far as he concerned, unless someone else does the coding (since all of the TNT Developing Staff pretty much only know Python), this will not happen. And even if someone else is willing to do the coding, I don't think it would happen any time soon if ever. Regardless, I really enjoy this idea, and hope that KS, and the members of Blocktopia's Administrative/Developing team, will give some thought to the idea of this server.

Edit : 0x3c0 needs to stop being such a ninja.

 

[balloon98]

To add on other things that could be an annoyance with trying to make the server work is dying since our main weapon TNT wouldn't guarantee a kill on someone unless its right next to them for premium while on Classic you get hit in any of the radius you die.

Not to mention a lot of plug-ins would need to be done for Upgrades, points, friendly fire, teams, and again the health system worked out with no longer being an insta-kill.

I have even thought about this idea but the factors add up to be too complicated to make it work. I feel like that's why our server is unique, since you cant really recreate it.

(still talks like he is staff there because he is at heart)

 

[Alkatraz]

0x3c0 summed up majority of my thoughts in his post.

To add a couple more points, I don't think the TNT gameplay style would work on Premium servers. Particularly with things like sprinting, hunger, bows, arrows etc.

If you want to think in Classic to Premium parallels, you ought to think of it in this way:
Lava -> Lava Premium
Zombie (tagging and turning another player) -> Army of Darkness (turning survivors into hunters)
TNT (classic pvp) -> Army of Darkness (premium pvp)

If I were to take one thing from our Classic TNT server onto a Premium server, it would be our command block/event capability and functionality. That would allow those of us with the knowledge (given to us by Razinao and Destroyerx1) to script King Of The Hill, Capture Points, Capture The Flag, (and debatably PayLoad) maps to be used on a Premium PvP based server.

 

[hihihilolHI]

Guys.
TNT in premium wouldn't be TNT.

 

[Mmarz11]

I was thinking of possibly making it and tested some of the basic features. I don't know if I'll finish it or not but ya... Also, I was testing the nuke and this is what happened:

I think I made the explosion a bit too powerful...

 

[Razinao]

The main mechanic of TNT is, wait for it...
Killing people by explosions! TNT, Grenades, Rockets, Lasers that go Pewpew, Nukes, Lightning Bolts, Mines, etc. etc.
Premium lacks the OOMPF of an explosion by doing a lovely knockback. Whenever I used TNT in vanilla I needed five to get the kick that the TNT server explosions give, which is obliteration in a small radius.

What does TNT gain from Premium porting?
More map designs, sprinting.
What does TNT lose from Premium porting?
Classic feel, the kick behind using weapons and a more clunky interface.

I prefer TNT to stay classy.

 

[Chips]

TNT premium would be a nice idea, maybe there would be a giant map, with 10-20 people scattered around the map, and each person starts out with 30 TNT.
They must find food, but no mining or chopping wood. People may only kill people with TNT, not enchanted diamond swords and full protection IV armor.
You must hunt others during day, or hide and find food and at night, you would hide and find shelter but killing would still be allowed, so be aware. And for the weapons, I have no clue for them.
Any other suggestions?
EDIT: Perhaps each person starts out with 30 TNT, a wood sword that never breaks (to fend off mobs) a furnace, and a crafting table?

 

[Chillingworth]

Not sure if I'm the only one that's noticing this, but it seems to me that TNT-ites here are not getting the point.

If TNT premium was created, you wouldn't lose your precious classic server.

Honestly, I felt the same way when AoD was released. I thought that meant the demise of classic Zombie. Alas, look which still draws larger crowds (the latter). Your beloved server isn't threatened by this idea, so stop treating it like so.

On another note, I can see the problems of creating a whole new server; more server hosting costs, more work, and developmental issues. However, we did it with Zombie and Lava, so who knows. I guess all I'm saying is this: the problem with a new Premium TNT should/would be about how difficult it would be to develop. NOT about whether it would "lose its classic feel" or "wouldn't be TNT like we know it." C'mon, that's ridiculous. Change is good sometimes, people!

/endrant

 

[superstein]

I do kind of like Dynasty's idea and that would probably be the approach to a premium TNT if ever created, kind of how LSMP is but that idea just seems a bit too hunger game-sy :S Maybe if it happens it can be like that, but I'm not sure, it would most definitely incorporate the command blocks :)

 

[Mikey]

Maybe If I eat more pistol bullets I can overcome the intelligence of a rocket YES THATS IT

 

[Defiant_Blob]

What does TNT gain from porting to Premium anyway?
Hunger and sprinting really aren't enough IMO to take the time to port it. Hunger is useless as chances are most people will die quickly, and if you live long you'll manage to pick up food from others anyways. Sprinting will make it a pain to hit others with weapons, and unbalances it a bit since Hunger can hinder a sprint chase.

Pros for Zombie Port:
*Humans can fight back
*Humans need to watch hunger, as they survive for longer amounts of time
*Better themed maps
*Different classes

Pros for Lava Port:
*Actually work and mine for resources
*Conserve resources
*Add in monster threats
*Lava actually burns you and other stuff
*More stuff to do while waiting

If anything, we can just make more maps similar to Explosive Arena for AoD, as that is very close to what you guys seem to want.

 

[0x3c0]

Not sure if I'm the only one that's noticing this, but it seems to me that TNT-ites here are not getting the point.

If TNT premium was created, you wouldn't lose your precious classic server.
...
Your beloved server isn't threatened by this idea, so stop treating it like so.

On another note, I can see the problems of creating a whole new server; more server hosting costs, more work, and developmental issues. However, we did it with Zombie and Lava, so who knows. I guess all I'm saying is this: the problem with a new Premium TNT should/would be about how difficult it would be to develop. NOT about whether it would "lose its classic feel" or "wouldn't be TNT like we know it." C'mon, that's ridiculous. Change is good sometimes, people!

Not quite sure how to interpret the first part about a 'precious classic server'. Whether sarcastic or not, it comes across as a little condescending.

While change is often good, change for the sake of getting something new and different is one of the worst things which can happen. I wouldn't feel threatened by a premium TNT server cropping up, but I wouldn't want to staff on it. I'll happily admit that I'd be put off by the different way of working, but all of our staff members have proven themselves able to adapt to changes so if I had to I'd be able to adjust.

The problem I see is precisely that it wouldn't be TNT as we know it. It wouldn't be a server where people kill one another with TNT and other weapons, it'd be yet another PvP server where TNT's just another weapon. I simply don't see what we'd gain from it, and a lot to lose. Scripting, (a massive part of gameplay, particularly for newer maps and non-TDM gametypes) some of our non-upgraded players, experience with the existing codebase, and many of our existing tweaks which help players and staff.

Obviously the decision would be up to KingSam and the community admins, but I wouldn't want TNT to have some kind of premium companion/alternative.

 

[Chillingworth]

Not quite sure how to interpret the first part about a 'precious classic server'. Whether sarcastic or not, it comes across as a little condescending.

I didn't mean for it to be sarcastic and/or condescending at all; we all love TNT! I just know that the staff there love it more than normal players - I know I feel the same with Zombie.

As for the rest of your post, I understand the points you make. However, I don't think Blocktopia would produce a terrible, generic TNT premium server if they ever made one. Don't you get the feeling that if we devoted the time and man-hours into making a premium TNT server that it would be pretty unique? I think we take pride in having the best servers around.

Also, sorry if I offended anyone in that last post. I wasn't being sarcastic.

 

[GmK]

Doing a 1:1 replica is easily doable, except some small scale edits. I could whip up a 'Premium' TNT in no time.

But why? Our TNT lives by the huge effort and dedication of the staff, every little nuance is worked out and planned through. Any 'premium' effort would be a bad image of that.

Nevertheless, a premium server with PvP gamemodes was always in the talks and might happen one day - but it would never be called 'TNT' or try to be anything like it.

 

[DJJonosound]

a more clunky interface.

This is the main thing in my opinion, TNT is fast paced, and suits the incredibly light classic interface.
Premium is good for survival and building, but in my opinion, faced paced action doesnt work well unless you have a really decent computer. For me on a laptop - I doubt it would work well. For someone on a quad core 8gig ram+ nvidia gtx graphics computer - epic win.

I think that is one of the benefits of TNT, you dont need a massively good computer to run it.
Aaaaaaand its free.

 

[KingSam]

I began writing this early this morning and the thread's moved on since then, so apologies if anything has been brought up already, but I didn't want to write it all again.

There seems to be two different ideas in this thread about what a premium TNT-esque server would be like.

Some of you are imagining an almost direct copy of what we have at the moment in classic over to TNT with instant-kill if you're hit by a TNT's explosion or a shotgun's lava spread. From that point of view, it would be almost worthless doing. Why? Because that would be the exact same thing as what we already have, only with more blocks to build maps with the ability to run faster if you sprint. Sure, there is hunger/hearts - but they would go unused if you're talking about a near direct copy of classic over to premium.

The other suggestion seems to be a premium server which utilises all the features of premium and has explosions in it, but varies from what we have already. Compared to the idea of a direct port, this one could be worth looking at. From there, a bunch of questions arise like what would the weapons be beside TNT? How would the killing mechanics work, would it be instant kill in the range, or damage drop-off? Does hunger play a role, and how does one get food? What do you do about the current PvP methods in vanilla (Bows/Swords), are they included? Do you have armour? If yes, how do you go about balancing it for new players so they still have a chance against seasoned veterans? Those are the kinds of questions that, if the idea were to be taken seriously, would have to be thought about. If you're going to suggest something, it's going to need more thought than just "Yeah, it'd be nice to have a premium version!" The idea's got to be fleshed out before anything can even be done to consider it.

For those who are questioning the development time it would require, let's look back at what it took to get TNT to joining the community. There was a platform it was built upon - iCraft. Let's look at premium; there's a very nice system that is already in place for modifying the game: Bukkit! So in regards to needing something to build on, there is already something in place.

As for how 'polished' a server it would be, let's also remember that when the TNT server was introduced, it was a much simpler version of the game. The weapons were more limited in both functionality and number. There was also just a shop to spend points on. You earned points to buy weapons, and that's as far as it went. There weren't upgrades or high-scores, command blocks to make different game-types, free for all rounds, mini-map rounds, all the other features we've added since, and there were a bunch of bugs. The server grew as we went along. It was, compared to what it is today, a much less advanced server. So in terms of getting it from idea to a working prototype, I think some are massively overstating what it would take. We're not looking at the time taken from idea of TNT to today's TNT, more of what it took to get it from the idea to something that is playable and enjoyable. For that, if we had somebody who was dedicated to making it and was willing to spend the time, I'm sure it would be feasible and wouldn't take too long to get up and running.

TL;DR: A direct copy would be pointless. If some sort of explosion-based PvP was the suggestion, then the idea needs to go further than just that, and you'd have to find somebody who is familiar enough with the resources available to Premium to make a server.

 

[mariosatr]

I'm not for or against either, since I barely play Minecraft anyhow, but what about this:

Maybe 10-20 players for the server.
Everyone has a certain amount of TNT and a certain amount of pistols they buy before the round starts.
Perhaps quite a few weapons in chests that respawn every 2 minutes and can't all be taken by 1 person.
TNT, Pistols, etc would have a longer range to compensate for sprinting.
Swords/Bows could come into play, but swords would be a lot worse (e.g. max 1/2 or 1 heart of damage per hit, or it would be too easy to get kills).

Just something that came off the top of my head that could be built on, but not sure if coded.

 

[Razinao]

Not quite sure how to interpret the first part about a 'precious classic server'. Whether sarcastic or not, it comes across as a little condescending.

Thank you for putting my words across with more gentle language. ;_;

One of the things with this is that Blocktopia doesn't let ineffective ideas become servers. The hunger games did not make it through this judging. What premium TNT that has been proposed that isn't a direct copy is PVP with TNT. Which takes away the entire FPS genre and turns it into the poor PVP content that Minecraft offers.

Zombie worked well because now you have sprinting and fighting back.
Lava worked well because you now have scavenging for resources, and something to do in your box, like fishing [well, used to. now you have to build over a pond...]
TNT... what will be the new hype to add, without making it a shitfest / griefing amongst two individuals on the server? If I see a reasonable, quality answer to this, i'll gladly change my perspective.

 

[Amorix]

I think the hunger system should be removed if TNT goes premium, and it food should work like this:
Apple: Heals 2 hearts
Pumpkin Pie: Heals 5 hearts
Cake: Full heal
Golden apple: 5 second invincibility.

 

[Pikmon2]

I figure it could almost be somewhat of a TF2 styled TNT. Not going to far from TNT of course. Say, we all have health, have what Roxaschao said above, and TNT does normal damage. Maybe even make it class based (Say, TNT and Pistol in same class, with reload chests possibly, or just infinite ammo.) Same game modes as TNT of course, including FFA. But alas, I understand a class system may take forever to work out, so if you want you can just throw that out. But still, with a more TF2 like style like above (Health, Health Restores, AND MAYBE, maybe even a close combat weapon like a wooden sword.) I didn't want to change it to much, but I want it to be as unique as TNT for classic, maybe taking a couple more advantages for being in Premium.