Timeline of Dichotomous Flowers - Game Complete

[Infected_alien8_]

Also, something just popped into my head; If the hour hand points at a player(or number for that sake), wouldn't that mean that the minute hand would need to be placed at XVI (vyryn) all the time? If the minute hand VIII (notty) then the hour hand would be placed right between two players. At least that's my understanding of a clock (if that still applies here)

(this one)

 

[Nottykitten]

If your theory is right and that the colours mean a fixed investigation report then over the next several days, nearing towards end-game, there's a reasonable chance we'd have sussed out what each of those colours mean. So then by that point, for example if you're right and we've deduced that Red = 1 mafia 1 town, and it comes up red nearing end-game, we suddenly have a 50/50 shot to lynch mafia correctly, and whoever isn't mafia among them is proven town.

I mean thats how cops do tend to work in games yes. Except now it's public (and about 2 people instead of 1 so you don't entirely know who's what) and we have a bit of mystery around it to give us a unique experience.

And the other colours, I can't think of what they could mean except for e.g. <colour 2> = 2 town, <colour 3> = 1 town 1 third party, stuff like that, since there's likely only town, mafia and third party so not many combinations the colours could mean. If we got <colour 2> on two people near endgame suddenly the lynch pool is significantly decreased. And this fact is presented for everybody to see, nobody has to out themselves to reveal it so it could happen again the next night since even if a specific person needs to be alive to control the clock, they can just stay silent about who they are and stay alive and let the clock do its thing again tomorrow. Don't you think that sounds overpowered/unfair on scum?

oh and I forgot to say that after we've sussed out what the colours mean we can look back over the previous clocks and possible confirm several people's alignments as well*

Not really, it feels exactly as fair as a game having a cop + tracker.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

I mean thats how cops do tend to work in games yes. Except now it's public (and about 2 people instead of 1 so you don't entirely know who's what) and we have a bit of mystery around it to give us a unique experience.



Not really, it feels exactly as fair as a game having a cop + tracker.

But the difference is that with a cop to get their results out they have to claim and then usually be blocked/killed. And if they die before that then nobody knows their reports for sure usually. So there's a tradeoff of outing as late as possible but not before they die, and as soon as they out their ability is a lot less useful.

In this game we don't have any of that. We have a cop that can pretty easily survive for the whole game who can confirm 2 townies in one day, make us have a 50/50 lynch on several days.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

and as soon as they out their ability is a lot less useful.

a lot less likely to be useful*

 

[Infected_alien8_]

And a cop gets 1 result each night that we can look back on, so one person's alignment per night (sometimes of someone who is now dead). So over 5 days for example, if cop outs we have 5 people's alignments, less if someone is dead.

With this, we could easily have way more than that over 5 days. E.g clock says that one of vy/notme is mafia d1, then 2 of inf/aqua are town d2, then one of inf/notty are town d3. We lynched vy and he was mafia, so from these 3 days we know that

a) notme is town
b) inf and aqua are town
c) notty isn't town

 

[Infected_alien8_]

(and over 5 days it could be for example 7 people's alignments known, compared to 5 with a regular cop)

 

[Infected_alien8_]

And a cop gets 1 result each night that we can look back on, so one person's alignment per night (sometimes of someone who is now dead). So over 5 days for example, if cop outs we have 5 people's alignments, less if someone is dead.

With this, we could easily have way more than that over 5 days. E.g clock says that one of vy/notme is mafia d1, then 2 of inf/aqua are town d2, then one of inf/notty are town d3. We lynched vy and he was mafia, so from these 3 days we know that

a) notme is town
b) inf and aqua are town
c) notty isn't town

although it could be that you can't target the same person twice, but still even without this I think this seems a bit OP personally

 

[Nottykitten]

And a cop gets 1 result each night that we can look back on, so one person's alignment per night (sometimes of someone who is now dead). So over 5 days for example, if cop outs we have 5 people's alignments, less if someone is dead.

With this, we could easily have way more than that over 5 days. E.g clock says that one of vy/notme is mafia d1, then 2 of inf/aqua are town d2, then one of inf/notty are town d3. We lynched vy and he was mafia, so from these 3 days we know that

a) notme is town
b) inf and aqua are town
c) notty isn't town

Except we don't know which color means what yet.

Look at it from another perspective: we have a time dial that points to two people, and the flower in the middle is red. I feel pretty confident in saying the flower is red because of the two players it points at. The only mechanic I can think of that would be like this is if it were to indicate alignment.

(and over 5 days it could be for example 7 people's alignments known, compared to 5 with a regular cop)

I'd be slightly surprised if this game even gets to day 4, also plenty of those 7 people could be dead by that point.


And like you said before the hosts are good at making games so ofcourse they would balance it out to the best of their abilities. If you think it's overpowered that's fine, it's a matter of opinion really. But I'm pretty sure we'll come to find this is exactly how the time dial works and we should utilize that today in this lynch.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Except we don't know which color means what yet.

Not yet, but we probably will do. And by that point it feels OP to me, since nobody has to out to give us reports and it could give us 2 confirmed townies in one day and give us two people to lynch from on several days of the game, which feels unfair

Look at it from another perspective: we have a time dial that points to two people, and the flower in the middle is red. I feel pretty confident in saying the flower is red because of the two players it points at. The only mechanic I can think of that would be like this is if it were to indicate alignment.

I just don't feel as confident that the colour is because of who it's pointing at. I think it could easily be a seperate thing. So the clock points at 2 people, and then a colour is decided afterwards by rng. And I think it probably is giving those two people some kind of effect.

I'd be slightly surprised if this game even gets to day 4, also plenty of those 7 people could be dead by that point.

Really? Are you expecting multiple deaths per night?

And yeah some of them could be dead, just as in the scenario with a cop some could be dead. But not necessarily. And if the hosts were balancing this game well (which I think they were since it's alisha and choco) they'd have probably considered worse-case scenarios like when none of the clock people died, and realized the game could be unbalanced and rejected that idea.

And like you said before the hosts are good at making games so ofcourse they would balance it out to the best of their abilities.

Yeah but I don't really see how they can balance it. Even if you made everyone a vanilla townie, having a mechanic in place to give us several 50/50 lynch shots and sometimes 2 townies proven on one day feels OP. Even if we don't know what the colours mean yet, when we do eventually figure out what the colours mean they we have 50/50 shots or 2 townies proven with certainty, if it comes to that. And in fact now that I think about it, even if we don't know what the colours mean, it's possible we'd decide to lynch between them just as you are, and therefore the setup has shoved a scum into the spotlight already. From a host perspective I just don't find it likely.

If you think it's overpowered that's fine, it's a matter of opinion really. But I'm pretty sure we'll come to find this is exactly how the time dial works and we should utilize that today in this lynch.

I guess. I just don't want to lynch somebody just so we can test this theory, if we don't already find them suspicious. I'd rather rely on reads to find mafia. Notme feels townie to me and although vy is neutral, he's great at coming up with insightful ways of reading people so I don't want to lynch him yet in case he is town, since he'll be really useful.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Like I said before, I don't hold the belief that it's impossible to balance, I think you could be right. I just personally haven't thought of how it could be balanced and don't find it likely atm

 

[Omni]

shut up inf you useless PLANT, i'm going to make sure you die this night...

 

[Nottykitten]

Really? Are you expecting multiple deaths per night?

Isn't that a given in most of our Mafia games? Although those usually had 20+ players.

And yeah some of them could be dead, just as in the scenario with a cop some could be dead. But not necessarily. And if the hosts were balancing this game well (which I think they were since it's alisha and choco) they'd have probably considered worse-case scenarios like when none of the clock people died, and realized the game could be unbalanced and rejected that idea.

I mean worst-case scenario cop finds 2+ mafia in a row which is also unbalanced. I'd like to point out last time you thought you knew what one of Alisha's setups contained you lynched me for being a vigilante that could prime and ignite someone. 83% chance of a vigilante BTW . She'd of made this game unique and balanced and she could easely pull of a game with this mechanic so I wouldn't disregard the idea so fast.

I guess. I just don't want to lynch somebody just so we can test this theory, if we don't already find them suspicious. I'd rather rely on reads to find mafia. Notme feels townie to me and although vy is neutral, he's great at coming up with insightful ways of reading people so I don't want to lynch him yet in case he is town, since he'll be really useful.

Fair I guess. But just to say, with that mindset we learn nothing about the colors and won't reach a lynch today at all because nobody will decide on the most suspicous player.

shut up inf you useless PLANT, i'm going to make sure you die this night...

Not if I kill him first

 

[Dess]

purplepixies can you expand on your reads on Inffy being vig or mafia? Unless I'm reading it wrong you're reading him as non town.

However I'm currently reading him as possible town, his reads sound normal for him but he's not really tunneling anybody at this point, which from the games I've seen him in is pretty townlike for him which is why I have very slight non town reads on him

I'll expand more in like two hours

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Isn't that a given in most of our Mafia games? Although those usually had 20+ players.

Hm maybe in closed setups. The last couple games have been just 1 death per night so I guess I'm feeling used to that

I mean worst-case scenario cop finds 2+ mafia in a row which is also unbalanced.

I guess so, I just think the clock thing has the potential to be a lot more unbalanced I guess

I mean worst-case scenario cop finds 2+ mafia in a row which is also unbalanced. I'd like to point out last time you thought you knew what one of Alisha's setups contained you lynched me for being a vigilante that could prime and ignite someone. 83% chance of a vigilante BTW . She'd of made this game unique and balanced and she could easely pull of a game with this mechanic so I wouldn't disregard the idea so fast.

Don't get me wrong I'm not disregarding the idea. I think you could be right. I just don't really believe it rn, and actually my instinct is to argue against the idea. It doesn't feel right. Maybe I'm just being stubborn but throughout this interaction I've felt myself just wanting to argue that it's not a clock thing, instead of sitting back and properly considering it.

If you think she could easily pull of a game with this mechanic, how do you think she'd balance it properly? Like do you have an idea of how you think it'd work?

 

[Infected_alien8_]

wanting to argue that it's not a clock thing

cop thing*

 

[Nottykitten]

If you think she could easily pull of a game with this mechanic, how do you think she'd balance it properly? Like do you have an idea of how you think it'd work?

Give it 4 colors and don't tell anyone what they mean is a good start. Make another PR a bit less powerfull/make the Mafia a tad more powerful. Godfather could definitely hurt the town a bit if they're not weary.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Give it 4 colors and don't tell anyone what they mean is a good start. Make another PR a bit less powerfull/make the Mafia a tad more powerful. Godfather could definitely hurt the town a bit if they're not weary.

What about the fact that red is often seen as an indication of scum in games, so creating the setup the way it is, they'd surely have realized that they'd make at least some people like yourself think one of the two people were mafia if the clock was red and either want to lynch them or want to investigate them at night. Don't you think that's a bit unfair on the mafia?

 

[Aqua]

Can we stop to appreciate inf's first penta post of the game?

Also purple's list furthers my initial thoughts on her if anybody was wondering.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

so creating the setup the way it is,

the way you think it is*

 

[Infected_alien8_]

the way you think it is*

wait no I meant to say what I said before I just read it back wrong

ignore me

the thing I should correct is

Don't you think that's a bit unfair on the mafia?

if the setup is what you think it is*

 

[ChocoFox]

—— Voting Recap ——
Deadline: 24 March 2019 UTC 22:00.
​

Aqua - 2(Notme, Omni) [L-7]
TehBrian - 2(Aqua, Infected_Alien8_) [L-7]
Omni - 1(Unusual_Dood) [L-8]
Vyryn - 1(Nottykitten) [L-8]

With 16 players, it takes 9 votes to lynch and 8 votes to no-lynch.

If no option reaches the required number of votes when a deadline hits, the day will end as a no-lynch.

Deadline in less than 24 hours!

 

[Nottykitten]

I just don't feel as confident that the colour is because of who it's pointing at. I think it could easily be a seperate thing. So the clock points at 2 people, and then a colour is decided afterwards by rng. And I think it probably is giving those two people some kind of effect.

Speaking of unbalanced, your proposition of what the colors might mean is the hallmark of a bastard setup. Random effects applying to people without their knowledge.

How would we know tonight's effect? How would we know tomorrow's? Even more so theres 4 colors which means atleast 4 times people will have unknown effects applied to them that we have no knowledge off and likely a second time a color comes up we still have no idea what it does. This isn't a bastard setup so having unknown effects applied to the people it points at feels very out of place.

What about the fact that red is often seen as an indication of scum in games, so creating the setup the way it is, they'd surely have realized that they'd make at least some people like yourself think one of the two people were mafia if the clock was red and either want to lynch them or want to investigate them at night. Don't you think that's a bit unfair on the mafia?

Bad luck of the draw I guess, that one of the roles the hands started on is Mafia (if thats what red means).

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Speaking of unbalanced, your proposition of what the colors might mean is the hallmark of a bastard setup. Random effects applying to people without their knowledge.

How would we know tonight's effect? How would we know tomorrow's? Even more so theres 4 colors which means atleast 4 times people will have unknown effects applied to them that we have no knowledge off and likely a second time a color comes up we still have no idea what it does. This isn't a bastard setup so having unknown effects applied to the people it points at feels very out of place.

Choco and alisha specifically called this setup a 'mystery setup', not a 'closed setup', so it doesn't feel out of place to me at all for that idea to be in the game

 

[Nottykitten]

Choco and alisha specifically called this setup a 'mystery setup', not a 'closed setup', so it doesn't feel out of place to me at all for that idea to be in the game

I find the mystery is figuring out what the color of the time dial means (in terms of alignment), not getting screwed over by random effects.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

I find the mystery is figuring out what the color of the time dial means (in terms of alignment), not getting screwed over by random effects.

Personally I wouldn't call it mystery just because there's an unknown element you have to figure out since most closed games have that. To me, the fact they called it mystery game means there's possibly something especially 'behind the scenes' going on which warrants that name, similar to a bastard setup. Although yeah if the effects have the potential to really screw people over that does seem a bit unfair and calling it a bastard setup would be more fitting