12 Angry Gunners - Game Complete!

Infected_alien8_

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responses to dess:

See that's the thing, I agree with you that it was obvious that Ltin wasn't trying to start a bandwagon on hip and I'm sure Hk was aware of that. What I can't ignore though is how Hk is still pushing hip after that. I'm simply stating that I didn't interpret him doing this as a joke.



It may be because I haven't played mafia in awhile but I didn't see anything he was saying as overly or unusually defense.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that then. Personally I thought hk's posts were clearly jokes, so the fact ltin took them serious, even though by default I think he wouldn't, made me think he was in a defensive mindset. Since it was the start of the game and nobody else had accused ltin of anything before hk's posts against him (the ones I interpret to be jokes), that meant ltin's defensive mindset probably came from something that happened right at the start of the game, and the only thing I can think of is his role. I don't think ltin would be nervous of being lynched as town PR since he barely ever gets lynched so I don't think it was him being a PR that made him more defensive, so I think it's much more likely it's him being a scum role that's making him be more defensive, because the worry of being lynched is greater when you're scum so I could see that being what caused him to be more defensive, and I can't think of any alternatives that I find more likely.

The major thing I still don't understand though is the continued push for him even after he has, assuming there is no mafia gunner, been proven town.
because unlike you I'm not assuming there is no mafia gunner, I think there could easily be a mafia role with a gun, especially since ltin has clearly showed his scummness imo by shooting me for 0 reason, which unlike you I don't interpret as him being lazy and missing posts, since I find it hard to believe that ltin conveniently missed my posts where I quoted him like twice/three times. It seems far more likely to me that he ignored them since he's scum


Quite honestly I think you are right about this. I think What i might be doing is reading into things a bit too much and substituting my own logic for theirs. However it still stands that I don't think that Ltin shooting you was completely out of line. The way I perceived his logic was "well I'm being threatened with being shot and I am town, I can prove that by shooting Inffy". Looking at it again I can even understand the idea of "wait I haven't been shot yet they might be lying". What I don't understand though is why he would have assumed you were lying in the first place. Somewhere along my post I mentioned that Ltin didn't see or ignored you stating that you were waiting for more opinions before shooting him.
yeah, I interpret as him ignoring it, because I find it hard to believe he accidentally didn't see the posts where I gave him an alert notification via quoting him, and ltin doesn't usually skip posts

Also with you "claiming" gunner, this is something I interpreted it as so it's only safe to assume that others did to. Especially in this game where likely most players have guns.
fair enough I guess

I don't pretend to understand why Hip called those three in particular out as mafia however the reaction, even I can see that Hk was clearly joking around here but going with assumptions that hip didn't see the joke or the joke seemed out of place, that meaning the reactionary vote, I can understand the vote being placed on him.
still, this was after hip already started pushing on hk, so even if hip now develops a proper reason for suspecting hk (based on hk's posts voting hip), I could still see hk thinking hip's initial push on hk came from nowhere and wondering if he's cop with a guilty on him, as the miller

but also I interpreted hip's response as a joke too, so maybe hk did as well, therefore he'd still not understand why hip is pushing him

or he might've interpreted hip's response as serious but just found it unlikely that hip interpreted hk's vote on him as anything but a silly, probably-irrelevant-to-alignment joke, and so interpret hip as using it as an excuse to push hk when in reality he has a secret proper reason for suspecting him (having a guilty report on him)

basically I could easily see possibilities for hk seeing hip as pushing hk for no reason so I don't find it weird hk would interpret it this way

I said putting his joking nature aside, not the post being a joke or not because quite frankly I didn't think it was one because other people also thought you lied about having a gun, unless I'm still only thinking of Unu
oh okay, I thought you meant 'if we ignore the valid possibility that he was joking,' and i was confused why you were ignoring that possibility, but if you just don't interpret it as a joke then fair enough

(yeah UNU was the only one who indicated he thought I didn't have a gun)

You probably are right about me underestimating him. That's likely because I don't think I've ever actually played a game with him as mafia. But wouldn't that also be a good strategy? Subtly cast doubt on you by playing on the fact that you might be lying whilst also not actually doing anything about it?
I don't think that strategy would actually do any good though. If I can easily defuse the situation by quoting the fact I shot ltin then it's not like hk having cast some subtle doubt on me would do anything, and given how experienced hk is I doubt he'd have thought it would have done

The reasoning behind why I am not interpreting hk as being a joke is the posts that follow it. Almost immediately after he is voted for by hip he becomes significantly more serious and loses all joking nature. The drastic change in character is what is odd about this. If I was to look at only the individual posts then yes it would be a joke, however his change following this is what drew my attention back towards it.
the way I interpreted this intially was 'hk: meme vote on hip as a response to hip suspecting him.' 'later hk: actually maybe hip is cop and has guilty on me, i should probably address that.'

I don't find the shift to being serious odd

I think I phrased the second part you are asking about poorly. What I moreso meant was that Hk's retaliation conveys a sense of panic to me. It's not that his retaliation is making people panic. Instead it's reacting in a way that can make people think you were panicking while writing it. And you're right maybe I am looking too far into this and maybe now that I'm seeing Hk as scum that's all I ever will see him as but as I stated in my reads post for Hk the reason why I find him suspicious isn't purely because of his vote on hip. The biggest reason is his reaction and what I believe to be a role that is blatantly unlikely and a lie.
okay

To me there is a difference between trying to help and playing too hard. While yes in this case he was slighting aiding in the discussion of Ltin he didn't really help it that much after that one post iirc. Furthermore with this he is also bringing up two different ideas that haven't been discussed once, which yes would ultimately help town it also seems like he is trying to portray himself so hard as town by bringing up three potential issues that need discussing in an attempt to deflect the conversation away from him. If you were to look at his posts following this he never once mentions the idea of Ltin, notty, or even you again.
I don't think he needed to mention them again though? He said his piece about ltin, so if he's town I don't necessarily expect him to repeat it. The part about why he suggested we think about notty's death and then never followed up on it, I can see why you might find that weird actually, but I can think of reasons that'd happen if he were town, although HKCaper should probably explain that himself so that I'm not giving him excuses

For me this is coming from knowing notty in mafia and knowing how most people are in mafia in regards to you. From my experience a ton of people joke about killing you night 1, myself included however it's never actually done, mafia doesn't even carry through with killing the person that "threatened" you because most likely they can assume you wouldn't make such a rookie mistake. I never once would have questioned if you killed her because you are a seasoned mafia player and you know that would only draw light to you and quite frankly it's more enjoyable having notty in the game longer, something I'm sure you would agree with.
to be fair I could get away with killing notty via wifom, like you're demonstrating now by saying 'you'd never kill notty if you were mafia because it'd shine light on you' - well maybe that's just what I wanted you to think! but I do also know that people could then realise 'wait maybe that's what inf was banking on us thinking, maybe inf is scum!!' so it'd be a risk. but then people could think 'maybe the mafia thought we would think this and blame inf for it and so they're framing inf and he's actually innocent!!', and then people could think 'but maybe that's what inf WANTS us to think!!' etc etc. so it'd just depend on which 'layer' of wifom reasoning I thought people would be likely to stop at that'd determine whether I thought I would get away with it or not

but you're right I agree notty staying alive makes games more fun so I wouldn't want to kill them n1 since they're incredibly active, but also mafia's a team game so hey maybe my team disagreed with me! or maybe I thought notty was actually going to shoot me the next day so killed notty because it was either that or die myself!

I want to be clear that I don't think it's weird that he mentioned either of the three things. What i think is weird is that he mentioned all three in one post as if, like I said earlier, he was trying to push the conversation away from him.
idk, to me it doesn't seem weird at all. the post was just essentially 'yeah I think mafia gunner is unlikely so I townread ltin and we shouldn't vote him. also, we could think of why notty died, maybe that'd help us find scum.' I could see a townie having those two thoughts in the same post easily

We can agree to disagree on the idea of him throwing out the idea that hip was cop immediately. I use the word immediately loosely here because as you mentioned it wasn't a direct response there was some time in between them.
okay fair enough


However. my point with this is is that instead of trying to find out more information for why hip thought he was sus, like you and I are doing know, he instead opted for going "oh I have an idea as to why but I won't say it" which to me screams "I think hip is cop".
I agree I think hk thought hip was cop - why is that weird though?
 

Infected_alien8_

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I didnt see ltin as a lynch option at the time, since i felt gunner meant town (like hip).
fair enough I guess

also my lowkey meta reasoning of alisha giving us the gunner template doesnt hold up either, because there could have shennanigans on day 0 (here im assuming at least not all mafia are gunners, which is fair i think).
what do you mean?

anyways we only have a few hours left so I suggest everyone makes some kind of vote so that we get as much info as possible for tomorrow

Good Skele Ltin TheWeakGuy48_ Unusual_Dood
 

HKCaper

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what do you mean?
i felt earlier that alisha gave the gunner template at start, so massclaim day 0 wouldnt fuck mafia over as they wouldnt be able to fully know what the gunner role was. If mafia had gunners they would know and therefore it would be unnecesary to give the template. But then i realized that even if mafia had 1 gunner, the rest would still be vulnerable to such a play. Also, the whole line of reasoning felt meta-ish and i didnt like it so much. Just thought i should mention it.
 

Timdood3

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(still have no clue how the situation with me saying id shoot anyone who didnt vote hip and then the next post call out ltin for bandwagoning hip wasnt a blatantly obvious meme (especially since i responded in prequel quotes to ltin after that (to be fair it i found it really funny how he got really confused about the word 'operation')))
You seem pretty focused on the idea that people are using things you did on day zero against you, but I don't see that. All of my reasons for suspecting you are from today. Just wanted to make that clear.
I'm not opposed to the checking you plan, but at this point the only other lynch is Ltin, and as far as I'm concerned he's a confirmed gunner.
The question then becomes is it preferable to lynch a confirmed gunner over a PR claim. Honestly...I don't really think so. I'd rather have a confirmed townie in the mix.

So, let's have a look at the philosophy behind including HK's role in the setup:
If town, its intended use is to protect townies from themselves. This somewhat counteracts the vigilantism mindset that comes with a setup full of guns as a sort of day doctor.
If mafia, its intended use is to protect mafia members from a large populace of people with guns. The mafia is very vulnerable to guns, and would definitely need a way to protect themselves.

If we assume that HK is town, then from a setup-creation perspective, I'm going to conclude based on his role that there are no mafia gunners. If there were mafia gunners, town would need a role to counteract them to some extent, and this is the closest thing to that we've seen. I think if there were mafia gunners, the role would be more akin to choosing a player and making their shot auto-miss, making the role more like a roleblocker.

TL;DR I'm more comfortable lynching HK over Ltin because as far as I'm concerned Ltin is confirmed gunner and an HK lynch will give us more information about the setup with a concrete role reveal even if he's town.
 

Infected_alien8_

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You seem pretty focused on the idea that people are using things you did on day zero against you, but I don't see that. All of my reasons for suspecting you are from today. Just wanted to make that clear.
I'm not opposed to the checking you plan, but at this point the only other lynch is Ltin, and as far as I'm concerned he's a confirmed gunner.
The question then becomes is it preferable to lynch a confirmed gunner over a PR claim. Honestly...I don't really think so. I'd rather have a confirmed townie in the mix.
why are you so certain that having a gun means you're town?

If we assume that HK is town, then from a setup-creation perspective, I'm going to conclude based on his role that there are no mafia gunners. If there were mafia gunners, town would need a role to counteract them to some extent, and this is the closest thing to that we've seen. I think if there were mafia gunners, the role would be more akin to choosing a player and making their shot auto-miss, making the role more like a roleblocker.
what do you mean with this last paragraph? surely it makes more sense for there to be mafia gunners if hk is town, since then his role would function as a way to stop mafia shooting town in the day as well as using their nightkill? which to me is more believable than a town role solely designed to protect town from other town
 

Unusual_Dood

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I don't really find Ltin that supicious, I would probably have done the same in his position. However his role is now completly useless and he will be a suspect for the rest of the game if he is not lynched today.

HKCaper however I find more suspicious especially his miller claim which makes it impossible (from what I can see) to fully prove him. Also having his role exposed significantly decrease the efficiency of his role, so it was weird he claimed so early but maybe he had to to survive.

I assume I would prefer HKCaper lynched more, but that also means we might take down a PR in difference from Ltin who wasted his ability and likely he will be lynched tomorrow or another day anyway, so I again assume we could lynch Ltin first because HKCaper isn't going anywhere anyway and he might be able to prove himself someday (have no belief in this though).
 

Infected_alien8_

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I don't really find Ltin that supicious, I would probably have done the same in his position. However his role is now completly useless and he will be a suspect for the rest of the game if he is not lynched today.
you'd have shot me for not shooting you yet even though I said I was waiting for more people's opinions? why??

HKCaper however I find more suspicious especially his miller claim which makes it impossible (from what I can see) to fully prove him.
yeah the only way would be if there's 1 maf left and hk is proven to do his night action while mafia also killed someone, but we don't know for sure if mafia have the ability to do more than one action per night or if any given kill is definitely a mafia one, so he'd never be 100% proven (but neither will anyone else since even if someone's inno'd by cop they could still be investigative immune/someone interfered with who the cop targets)
 
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