They Are Among Us [Game Complete!]

[Infected_alien8_]

if you respond again thats fine but im not gonna respond back because idont want to flood the thread with walls of arguments when ive imo already made my points clear and i still stand by them 100%.

(altho obviously i will respond if i end up agreeing with you on something and wanting to retract something i said)

 

[Infected_alien8_]

oh also, another thing i just thought of in response to this:

So the 3 mafia are now consistently outted giving further suspicion to them. The only way to blend in would be to target the same people again.

if someones nightkilled, the maf take the items. so if maf kill someone who had received player A's item number 1, the only way player A can prove they sent that item is now for town to lynch/steal from the mafia who killed player A. So the pool of suspected isn't even necessarily 6 like I had said in my previous post, it could be 8 bearing this in mind.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

oh also, another thing i just thought of in response to this:



if someones nightkilled, the maf take the items. so if maf kill someone who had received player A's item number 1, the only way player A can prove they sent that item is now for town to lynch/steal from the mafia who killed player A. So the pool of suspected isn't even necessarily 6 like I had said in my previous post, it could be 8 bearing this in mind.

also obviously maf could steal the person's item just be being a thief as well, meaning potentially 4 people out of this 'suspect pool' could not get to prove their item even after night 3, if maf has both a killer and a thief, until the items are found via killing/stealing from the correct mafia member, which could be never.

yeppity yep friend, up until night 3, and then, as i mentioned in this post already, it could easily leave us with 6! ... with 5 of us alive

(obv if we reached past night 3 we'd have lynched 1 of the maf, so theyd only be able to target 2 of us now instead of 3, meaning the pool would be 5 with 5 of us alive using the logic I used here - but as I just said, I missed the fact that there may be some people who never get to prove themselves since maf stole the item forever by killing them, or just by straight up taking it)

 

[Aqua]

how does the mafia building a powerful item put us at a disadvantage? by doing exactly that

if we cant build our thing but they can build theirs, that puts us at a disadvantage, assuming their item is useful for them and not for us (or more useful for them than it is for us)

Oh yeah haha that makes sense... except you're once again forgetting all the other variables that give town a major advantage over mafia that I keep reiterating. Stop playing dumb.

in order to be cleared about not hiding the blueprint items, you need to show that you sent 2 of your items to someone else. if you sent only 1 of them, it doesnt prove your 2nd item isnt the blueprint one.

This is a fairly better point (altho once again somewhat irrelevant theorycrafting but I'll indulge you I guess) I was assuming that each mafia would have two items that town would require, rather than just one. That is a possible scenario, and would possibly extend the vetting process an extra day. However in this time we still have the 2-3 checks going on to test whether the number of suspects (which again, doesn't equate to 9 as you forget on day 1 and 2 there have also been 2-3 checks on peoples items). Assuming it takes the same number for the mafia crafting recipe as it does the townie crafting recipe they won't have been able to stop all the needed items from going to the one or two trusted townies. The other thing you have to consider is that just like you did with the riddles we'd have a number of uncc'd item claims for the ingredients of the alien detector. So if the mafia wanted to obstruct them from trading to the two trusted townies they'd have to use their first nights worth of actions to slow them down meaning they wouldn't have any scapegoats the first night.

We would likely lose 1 or more of the items to the nightkill/roadblock but they would still be in a thinning pool in the following two days and with competent reasoning and night actions be outed as scum. (As at this point they would have accumulated the stolen items/had mafia-esque items).

With all the investigative benefits you're suggesting the town has I just don't see this game not being massively townsided, even if the town wasn't fully transparent from the get go.

Obviously we're in the unlikely predicament of the cop being outed day 0 by a townie fake claiming cop and the guy with the bulletproof vest being lynch and the bullet proof vest going to the mafia/3rd party thief.

But that's not my problem *sips tea*

Anyway like I say this obsession over the massclaim hypothesis is unproductive and you're using it to distract from your role not fitting the balance or the theme of town. If you bring it up again imma literally simulate the game just to explain how wrong you are for forgetting about all the numerous variables.

additionally, you say "unless they have a thief role" - exactly, they could have a thief role. and this possibility has always been there. on day 0 anything was possible, including that item thief role. on d1, like i said, fog's items were potentially messed with d0, so we had reason to think there might be one even more so

OK and once again I will reiterate it is not day 0, it is day 2.

Furthermore, fogs items weren't even stolen they were swapped, but nobody else has claimed their items had been switched with anybodies. So our two options would be:

Fog was lying about his items because it's fog

Fogs items were switched with someones but for scummy reasons they had to hide that fact

or

Fogs items were switched with two items outside of the pool.

So assuming the top one isn't the most likely, which no offence to fog, probably is.

Which of the other two would you believe more realistic?

The former would suggest that mafia swapped fogs item with one of their own (unless there's just some chaotic 3rd party but that makes no sense), in which case it begs the question, 'If town has no nightkill, why did mafia spawn with the cow?'

and the latter would imply a complete and utter 4th wall of mechanics going on within the game that hasn't been addressed or observed since.

If you genuinely believe that fogs items were tampered with please give a rational explanation. Because from where I'm standing all evidence points in the contrary.

again you're acting like you know what the maf PRs are. if you look at any setup and just look at the town roles it can look townsided because youre not looking at the scum roles

that exist to counter them. there are likely maf PRs to counter our roles. youre also acting like the cop, myself and tim will all target the right people at the right time (maf can transfer items to one another dont forget, so whoever is holding items can be changed to the person least suspected, or even given to a townie to frame them, with a plan to take the item back during the day before theyre lynched so that it doesnt get into towns hands after theyre lynched, if the maf do have an item thief), not get blocked, and be trusted when we reveal information. it's not a "free win" by any means - not necessarily anyway. if it is, we cant be sure of that.

and again, we dont know there isnt another thief, or blocker.

...this has nothing to do with what the mafs PRs are...

unless it's something literally as busted as kill all investigative roles on visiting or give them all fake results then it doesn't matter...

So, as I say, maths is not my strongest point so I have contacted an actual omegabrain statistician, my boy mariosatr to run the stats for me in a scenario where out of 11 players 3 are maf with 1 night kill and 1 role block and 3 investigative townie roles with 5 vanilla townies. Obviously there are far more variables in this game and this is an over simplification, however this should hopefully explain the root of my argument. Unless of course my tiny pea brain is incorrect which I will begrudgingly acknowledge if it is the case. So when he gets back to me I'll report back.

What amazes me about this tho is that you've yet to comment on mafias best known weapon at their disposal. The trading system. If the mafia team are smart they will predict who will be targeted and trade items prior to the visit to potentially hide damning evidence. Obviously if they've been hoarding items this won't work as they'll have more than the two as only one item can be traded but that seems like the most realistic issue with my theory.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Oh yeah haha that makes sense... except you're once again forgetting all the other variables that give town a major advantage over mafia that I keep reiterating. Stop playing dumb.

refuted already

This is a fairly better point (altho once again somewhat irrelevant theorycrafting but I'll indulge you I guess) I was assuming that each mafia would have two items that town would require, rather than just one. That is a possible scenario, and would possibly extend the vetting process an extra day. However in this time we still have the 2-3 checks going on to test whether the number of suspects (which again, doesn't equate to 9 as you forget on day 1 and 2 there have also been 2-3 checks on peoples items).

true I hadn't taken mine/tim's checks into account, however it'd 1-2 checks not 2-3, except it'd be far more likely to be only 1 since why wouldnt maf block one of me/tim (assuming they have a blocker which i personally think they do.)

this means it'd be a pool of probably 7 players from d1-d2, and that pool will likely stay at 6-7 til the end of the game because of what I mentioned after this post you're quoting. that still isn't worth it bearing in mind the risks imo.

Assuming it takes the same number for the mafia crafting recipe as it does the townie crafting recipe they won't have been able to stop all the needed items from going to the one or two trusted townies.

idk what you mean by this

The other thing you have to consider is that just like you did with the riddles we'd have a number of uncc'd item claims for the ingredients of the alien detector. So if the mafia wanted to obstruct them from trading to the two trusted townies they'd have to use their first nights worth of actions to slow them down meaning they wouldn't have any scapegoats the first night.

you do realize people can do an action as well as send an item right? if so im not sure i understand your point

We would likely lose 1 or more of the items to the nightkill/roadblock but they would still be in a thinning pool in the following two days and with competent reasoning and night actions be outed as scum. (As at this point they would have accumulated the stolen items/had mafia-esque items).

With all the investigative benefits you're suggesting the town has I just don't see this game not being massively townsided, even if the town wasn't fully transparent from the get go.

refuted already

Anyway like I say this obsession over the massclaim hypothesis is unproductive and you're using it to distract from your role not fitting the balance or the theme of town.

it was you who started this. i responded, then you responded, so then i responded back. making out this convo is controlled by me because of some secret motive i have makes no sense.

If you bring it up again imma literally simulate the game just to explain how wrong you are for forgetting about all the numerous variables.

oh id love to see you simulate the game when you only know half the roles in play, and then be able to give an accurate judgement of how balanced the game is.

OK and once again I will reiterate it is not day 0, it is day 2.

refuted what i believe is your point behind this

Furthermore, fogs items weren't even stolen they were swapped, but nobody else has claimed their items had been switched with anybodies. So our two options would be:

Fog was lying about his items because it's fog

Fogs items were switched with someones but for scummy reasons they had to hide that fact

or

Fogs items were switched with two items outside of the pool.

So assuming the top one isn't the most likely, which no offence to fog, probably is.

Which of the other two would you believe more realistic?

The former would suggest that mafia swapped fogs item with one of their own (unless there's just some chaotic 3rd party but that makes no sense), in which case it begs the question, 'If town has no nightkill, why did mafia spawn with the cow?'

and the latter would imply a complete and utter 4th wall of mechanics going on within the game that hasn't been addressed or observed since.

If you genuinely believe that fogs items were tampered with please give a rational explanation. Because from where I'm standing all evidence points in the contrary.

id not actually thought about the question 'why would maf start with a cow', but i have been suggesting the maf may have started with the cow yeah. to answer the question 'why?', i guess we could have a one-shot vig we don't know about yet but that'll become clear later. if there is no one shot vig then yeah i agree, from what ive considered so far it makes little sense. but fog lying about his item also makes no sense and its not something fog would do i dont think. he'd have most likely just completely misread his item, if he didnt actually have the item he said he did.

...this has nothing to do with what the mafs PRs are...

unless it's something literally as busted as kill all investigative roles on visiting or give them all fake results then it doesn't matter...

So, as I say, maths is not my strongest point so I have contacted an actual omegabrain statistician, my boy mariosatr to run the stats for me in a scenario where out of 11 players 3 are maf with 1 night kill and 1 role block and 3 investigative townie roles with 5 vanilla townies. Obviously there are far more variables in this game and this is an over simplification, however this should hopefully explain the root of my argument. Unless of course my tiny pea brain is incorrect which I will begrudgingly acknowledge if it is the case. So when he gets back to me I'll report back.

already refuted, but im gonna do it one more time. so your argument here is, then, 'it doesnt matter what roles the mafia could have, we know the game is unbalanced'.

for all you know we have a maf lawyer, a maf blocker, and a maf driver role. those three roles alone would completely dismantle your view of this game being unbalanced. if you dont know, a maf lawyer makes someone appear guilty on investigations when theyre inno, a maf blocker you obviously know, a maf driver chooses a player and chooses who they target their actions to. this is just one example of how the makeup of the mafia team could keep the game balanced while also having all the town roles we currently know about.

we already know 1 of towns investigative roles is simulatneously a cop, so they likely wont be using their role all the time, and if they do theyre sacrificing their doc ability. we also know that maf can plant items on innocents to make them look guilty, or hide their items within one another to protect themselves, from the other remaining 2 investigatives. so the picture youre painting here of 'town has 3 investigation roles' really is an oversimplification yeah youre right.

What amazes me about this tho is that you've yet to comment on mafias best known weapon at their disposal. The trading system. If the mafia team are smart they will predict who will be targeted and trade items prior to the visit to potentially hide damning evidence. Obviously if they've been hoarding items this won't work as they'll have more than the two as only one item can be traded but that seems like the most realistic issue with my theory.

i literally mentioned this.

 

[Aqua]

Whoops accidentally posted my essay half done my bad boo gimme some time to catch up xo

again, day steal could be possible

Please provide evidence to support this theory.

true your role does that as well, so thats two roles. and i agree its a reasonable assumption that maf may have a role that relies on/links to items as well. however, your point was that its unlikely maf have a blocker, because the maf's roles should link to items, and blocker doesn't. my point is that we clearly don't have a strict theme of 'all PR roles must link to items', because erik doesn't fit that, so its not reasonable to believe its unlikely mafia will have a blocker on the basis that its not a role that links to items.

Alright I'll give you that, I was going off of your assumption that mafia had 2-3 super amazing abilities that would balance out this massively town favoured game but fair.

Let's assume mafia has a day swap a night kill (+ steal) and a night block then...

there's nothing strawman about my argument at all.

It's a strawman in the fact that you're tunnel visioning heavily on a semi analogous hypothesis I threw in to try and help explain why a townie line up with 3 investigative pr's one of which steals items, which in context with the game, could potentially ruin the mafia team was imbalanced. You've spent the majority of every response focusing on this scenario trying to nitpick issues with whether it would or wouldn't actually occur in real mafia.

I believe the hosts would have envisioned it as a potential scenario but even if I was wrong in that regard you're still ignoring the actual major balancing issues I've brought up while just responding with 'you act as if you know the mafia power roles' when they're irrelevant.

You don't balance a game by making one side ridiculously strong then making the other even more so and that goes tenfold for mafia. This game should be about using our wits and the set of tools we have been given to puzzle together who's lying and who's telling the truth. In your hypothetical game we have an abundance of incredibly strong tools and to counter act that the mafia have some incredible night actions which once again, you love to bring up but you have yet to actually elaborate on what you think these could be.

Because a day item swap and a block coupled with a night kill + steal really doesn't seem to compare against the 2 night chats, 3 investigative roles, the doc role, the item remover role and potentially the permanent bullet proof vest.

except im not since ive addressed why all of our roles can exist as town ones and remain balanced. im not gonna repeat them, my arguments are there if you want to read them.

Altho that's not even what I was talking about (That was again in reference that mafia would likely have a normal night block), once again your arguments don't addressed it.

Elaborate on what these Mafia PR roles/items could be in order to balance the game.

its not irrelevant at all. my read on you is basically dependant on this rn since to me it looks like complete BS, so unless you give me an actual idea of what your 'plan' supposedly was - which is the only way youre going to change mine, and most likely every other townie's mind - im going to end up voting you today.

Even if it was complete bullshit why would that make me scum, and if I was scum why would I say that?

Tell you what, I'll go into it once you elaborate on what mafia PR roles would balance out a townie comp with 2 night chats, 3 investigative roles, the doc role, the item remover role and potentially the permanent bullet proof vest :)

night 0 isn't a thing in mafia games.

and i mean, you can literally ask stranger this same question in PM yourself?

Yeah sorry I'm pepega

And

Ayyyy I've been waiting for this proud response of yours, I was worrying you'd back down when I gave you the infer option but you got too cocky kid

Because I did, infact, ask stranger and the answer I got was a resounding no. So now I know with confidence you're lying as the host didn't divulge game mechanic information to a single player. Because they won't - because that breaks the game.

So now I know for a fact you're lying about the blocking as well as lying about the contents of your dms and I hope everyone else in this thread messages Stranger too because you'll find out he was lying as well.

Now, go invent ur dream mafia roster bub <3
I'm waiting.

 

[Aqua]

true I hadn't taken mine/tim's checks into account, however it'd 1-2 checks not 2-3, except it'd be far more likely to be only 1 since why wouldnt maf block one of me/tim (assuming they have a blocker which i personally think they do.)

this means it'd be a pool of probably 7 players from d1-d2, and that pool will likely stay at 6-7 til the end of the game because of what I mentioned after this post you're quoting. that still isn't worth it bearing in mind the risks imo.

2-3 includes Erik as he may investigate rather than protect, but you're right someone may be blocked so let's meet in the middle and say 1-3.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

true I hadn't taken mine/tim's checks into account, however it'd 1-2 checks not 2-3, except it'd be far more likely to be only 1 since why wouldnt maf block one of me/tim (assuming they have a blocker which i personally think they do.)

this means it'd be a pool of probably 7 players from d1-d2, and that pool will likely stay at 6-7 til the end of the game because of what I mentioned after this post you're quoting. that still isn't worth it bearing in mind the risks imo.

unless you mean in the world where erik is alive, in which case yeah it'd be 2-3, and then 2 every night considering a maf block, meaning the pool is like 5, in which case yeah it might be worth it. but we didnt know about the alien blueprint and mine + tim's role together until after erik had died, so theres no way we couldve come to the conclusion that we could massclaim items and reduce the pool to ~5 people. so yeah, youd be right. this might actually have been worth it, but theres no way we couldve known at the time. unless you think somehow we shouldve decided to massclaim immediately even though we know 0 about any other role in the game, which would be unreasonable.

 

[Aqua]

idk what you mean by this

So you require 3 items to make the town alien detector allegedly, I'm assuming that that means mafia also requires 3 items to make the mafia doomsday item.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Whoops accidentally posted my essay half done my bad boo gimme some time to catch up xo



Please provide evidence to support this theory.

responded to already

Alright I'll give you that, I was going off of your assumption that mafia had 2-3 super amazing abilities that would balance out this massively town favoured game but fair.

Let's assume mafia has a day swap a night kill (+ steal) and a night block then...

...ok?

It's a strawman in the fact that you're tunnel visioning heavily on a semi analogous hypothesis I threw in to try and help explain why a townie line up with 3 investigative pr's one of which steals items, which in context with the game, could potentially ruin the mafia team was imbalanced. You've spent the majority of every response focusing on this scenario trying to nitpick issues with whether it would or wouldn't actually occur in real mafia.

this makes 0 sense

you said 'the game is unbalanced if town has you', and explained why, using the roles we know about

i refuted that, by explaining why, given the roles we know about, it may not necessarily be unbalanced

there is nothing strawman about this, and your description of what im doing, as "nitpick(ing) issues with whether it would or wouldn't actually occur in real mafia" isn't even what has been happening at all. ive been argueing why you cant say the game is unbalanced. not whether people would realistically do x or y.

I believe the hosts would have envisioned it as a potential scenario but even if I was wrong in that regard you're still ignoring the actual major balancing issues I've brought up while just responding with 'you act as if you know the mafia power roles' when they're irrelevant.

already refuted, ive not ignored your 'balancing issues' at all. of course mafia roles are relevant. saying town is OP because we have x roles that could work together in a massclaim scenario makes no sense unless you know the mafia cant use the fact they know who has those roles to counteract any plans the town might do with a massclaim. otherwise obviously theyre not OP.

You don't balance a game by making one side ridiculously strong then making the other even more so and that goes tenfold for mafia. This game should be about using our wits and the set of tools we have been given to puzzle together who's lying and who's telling the truth. In your hypothetical game we have an abundance of incredibly strong tools and to counter act that the mafia have some incredible night actions

thats really not what im saying in the slightest. ive not said 'we have incredible strong roles but mafia have incredibly strong ones so its ok', thatd be an oversimplification of my argument. obviously that sentence wouldnt garuntee a game is balanced.

ive said we have the roles we have, and their strength is obviously determined by how well mafia can deal with or counter those roles. if mafia can deal with them effectively and with a decent chance of doing so, then theyre not so strong anymore. and imo its easily plausible that they can, and ive laid out perfectly clear what that would look like.

the mafia have some incredible night actions which once again, you love to bring up but you have yet to actually elaborate on what you think these could be.

ive brought this up at least three times.

Because a day item swap and a block coupled with a night kill + steal really doesn't seem to compare against the 2 night chats, 3 investigative roles, the doc role, the item remover role and potentially the permanent bullet proof vest.

except it does and we've already gone over why. yeah, the pool is now down to 5 if we somehow know about, and trust the existence of, erik's, mine and tim's roles all being town, and know about them before any of us die, in which case then it might be townfavoured. might be. but:

a) it might also not be, depending on what items the maf can construct.
b) the hosts may not have predicted this scenario would occur, and reasonably so, because it's extremely unlikely, because it all revolves around us 1) having info of these roles while they're still alive, and 2) trusting them to be town.

Altho that's not even what I was talking about (That was again in reference that mafia would likely have a normal night block), once again your arguments don't addressed it.

Elaborate on what these Mafia PR roles/items could be in order to balance the game.

again ive already done this.

Even if it was complete bullshit why would that make me scum, and if I was scum why would I say that?

because it was all you can think of to worm your way out of accidentally lying. saying 'oh it was part of a plan' and hoping people dont care enough to press you for what it was.

if its not BS why would you show resistance to sharing what it was?

Tell you what, I'll go into it once you elaborate on what mafia PR roles would balance out a townie comp with 2 night chats, 3 investigative roles, the doc role, the item remover role and potentially the permanent bullet proof vest :)

already done many times, and i know youre just gonna respond saying 'no you haven't', and then im just gonna ignore it because, for the last time, i have

Ayyyy I've been waiting for this proud response of yours, I was worrying you'd back down when I gave you the infer option but you got too cocky kid

Because I did, infact, ask stranger and the answer I got was a resounding no.

congrats, youve agreed with me.

So now I know with confidence you're lying as the host didn't divulge game mechanic information to a single player. Because they won't - because that breaks the game.

So now I know for a fact you're lying about the blocking as well as lying about the contents of your dms and I hope everyone else in this thread messages Stranger too because you'll find out he was lying as well.

?

if the answer was no, what question did you ask

Now, go invent ur dream mafia roster bub <3
I'm waiting.

idk what this means

cant believe i said i was going to ignore stuff ive already refuted but i just cant help myself apparently

i really am going to ignore you now though unless you actually bring up something i havent refuted/considered, so if i dont respond just assume i believe ive already covered it

 

[Aqua]

for all you know we have a maf lawyer, a maf blocker, and a maf driver role. those three roles alone would completely dismantle your view of this game being unbalanced. if you dont know, a maf lawyer makes someone appear guilty on investigations when theyre inno, a maf blocker you obviously know, a maf driver chooses a player and chooses who they target their actions to. this is just one example of how the makeup of the mafia team could keep the game balanced while also having all the town roles we currently know about.

Wow you jumped the gun and actually elaborated before I did my big elaborate or eat my ass meme.

I sincerely apologise!

Altho I feel like you'd need to consider the nightkill which would only allow tonight actions from the power roles with one carrying out the night kill.

Now I hate to say it but let's go back to the massclaim hypothesis.

A lawyer could possibly fuck erik over one night. However, as soon as the guilty verdict reveals false it should be assumed that eriks pr is untrustworthy and since he has another power pr it's likely he'd go into full time doc until he died or until the lawyer died (maybe he'd all his results were reversed (drunk cop I think icr), but I think it'd be optimistic that it would result in another mislynch.). In a game with half a cop, unless it was a special item lawyer as well... it seems pretty useless.

Blocker blocks innit 3/5 chance of hitting someone valuable, it's decent but not amazing.

Now maf driver would be great in a game where we claimed because that would be a great way to divert the items mafia needed to mafia players, but if this scenario didn't happen, when most players aren't gonna be trading items and one of the few power roles (or maybe 2 depending on how unu's ability worked) is a night chat makes it seem like an unlikely addition to the game. A night thief who can target a player and take their items without their life would balance out the game far better and would be a strong counterpart to town's flexibility and potential coordination regardless of a massclaim.

It's just the best choice for the situation my dude.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Wow you jumped the gun and actually elaborated before I did my big elaborate or eat my ass meme.

I sincerely apologise!

Altho I feel like you'd need to consider the nightkill which would only allow tonight actions from the power roles with one carrying out the night kill.

Now I hate to say it but let's go back to the massclaim hypothesis.

A lawyer could possibly fuck erik over one night. However, as soon as the guilty verdict reveals false it should be assumed that eriks pr is untrustworthy and since he has another power pr it's likely he'd go into full time doc until he died or until the lawyer died (maybe he'd all his results were reversed (drunk cop I think icr), but I think it'd be optimistic that it would result in another mislynch.). In a game with half a cop, unless it was a special item lawyer as well... it seems pretty useless.

Blocker blocks innit 3/5 chance of hitting someone valuable, it's decent but not amazing.

Now maf driver would be great in a game where we claimed because that would be a great way to divert the items mafia needed to mafia players, but if this scenario didn't happen, when most players aren't gonna be trading items and one of the few power roles (or maybe 2 depending on how unu's ability worked) is a night chat makes it seem like an unlikely addition to the game. A night thief who can target a player and take their items without their life would balance out the game far better and would be a strong counterpart to town's flexibility and potential coordination regardless of a massclaim.

It's just the best choice for the situation my dude.

disagree about bus driver being unlikely. dont forget bus drivers target all actions, not just items. so, in the event that we dont all trade, itd still have use on PRs. additionally, mafia already can steal items from town, by killing them, so in the world where town doesnt trade items and carry out the plan youve said, my role really isnt necessary for them at all.

 

[Aqua]

there is nothing strawman about this, and your description of what im doing, as "nitpick(ing) issues with whether it would or wouldn't actually occur in real mafia" isn't even what has been happening at all. ive been argueing why you cant say the game is unbalanced. not whether people would realistically do x or y.

to be honest on reflection I brought it up as much as you did so it's on me for shifting the goal post to cover that hypothesis as much as we did. i should have just ignored you and pressured based on balancing I'll take back that point.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Aqua can you just elaborate on your 'plan' so we can decide if we should massclaim or not

 

[Infected_alien8_]

additionally, mafia already can steal items from town, by killing them, so in the world where town doesnt trade items and carry out the plan youve said, my role really isnt necessary for them at all.

(and obv i disagree its necessary in the world where we do all that as well)

 

[Aqua]

disagree about bus driver being unlikely. dont forget bus drivers target all actions, not just items. so, in the event that we dont all trade, itd still have use on PRs. additionally, mafia already can steal items from town, by killing them, so in the world where town doesnt trade items and carry out the plan youve said, my role really isnt necessary for them at all.

Your role is necessary for a mafia item victory.

Adams writing something in Python because apparently stats are harder than I thought but it seems to be around 60%~ town favoured in a simplified vacuum.

But in essence on top of the nightkill item steal you would allow further items to be stolen making it far more likely for mafia to win an item victory. This is further backed with roles such as mine or Tim's being in the game as we are good proponents to counter that.

It makes the game a race whether town can lynch the mafia or communicate well and build their machine or whether mafia can steal enough items to make their machine fast enough.

 

[Aqua]

Aqua can you just elaborate on your 'plan' so we can decide if we should massclaim or not

Fuck this has been hyped up way too much now, but before I do you know this plan was just to bait you into revealing more info so I could determine whether to trust you or not, right? I didn't and still don't even after it failed but I don't see how a mass claim is relevant to my dumb plan.

at best I was also planning on keeping up the charade if it worked out and making mafia think I was more of a threat to their item collecting than I actually am forcing them to target me over Tim or someone else more useful.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Your role is necessary for a mafia item victory.

Adams writing something in Python because apparently stats are harder than I thought but it seems to be around 60%~ town favoured in a simplified vacuum.

your simplified calculation literally means nothing to me because its simplified and ignores the entire other team's abilities

the fact its 60% without even accounting for those roles should tell you something, though honestly i have 0 clue where that number would come from because im also bad at maths.

But in essence on top of the nightkill item steal you would allow further items to be stolen making it far more likely for mafia to win an item victory. This is further backed with roles such as mine or Tim's being in the game as we are good proponents to counter that.

yeah it would make it more likely. but is it necessary for them? no

at this point im too tired to continue this debate. if you think its unbalanced, then you do you. if youre right, then i guess this games unbalanced, which absolutely isnt out of the realms of possibility by the way. i still disagree that it is unbalanced though.

It makes the game a race whether town can lynch the mafia or communicate well and build their machine or whether mafia can steal enough items to make their machine fast enough.

thats a nice game idea, too bad stranger's the host not you so you cant know whether thats what stranger actually achieved or not

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Fuck this has been hyped up way too much now, but before I do you know this plan was just to bait you into revealing more info so I could determine whether to trust you or not, right? I didn't and still don't even after it failed but I don't see how a mass claim is relevant to my dumb plan.

at best I was also planning on keeping up the charade if it worked out and making mafia think I was more of a threat to their item collecting than I actually am forcing them to target me over Tim or someone else more useful.

ok so can you tell me specifically what info you were hoping to get from me

 

[Infected_alien8_]

and also explain why you didnt just outright say what the plan was all along

 

[Aqua]

So in essence, since you wouldn't share what items you had stolen or clarify which items you had begun the game with which was even more scummy to add on top of the original scum, I wanted to reach an ultimatum with you by tricking you into thinking I had more power than I actually did.

By using the wrench as leverage if nothing got anywhere I would threaten to destroy the wrench if you did not comply. This wasn't helped by me then finding out, through the awkwardness that is subbing midday first via discord then via escaperetart convo, that the wrench was immediately put in the safe by whoever was in my role before me and then also having the misfortune to try this when Tim had visited me. (and then promptly revealed before I could progress with trying to get info out of you for some reason idk why Tim did that but rip)

that's about it really.

 

[Aqua]

and also explain why you didnt just outright say what the plan was all along

I didn't want it to distract from my main points, which it somewhat did as all of that was a lot messier than it had to be.... but since I've come out still confident ur role doesn't fit the game after ur answers and knowing that you lied about receiving conformation from the host I'm confident ur scum.

 

[Aqua]

I didn't want it to distract from my main points, which it somewhat did as all of that was a lot messier than it had to be.... but since I've come out still confident ur role doesn't fit the game after ur answers and knowing that you lied about receiving conformation from the host I'm confident ur scum.

Speaking of I'll reveal what I asked once you reveal what you asked. I don't want you rewording your claim based on what I asked. I've already explained what answer I received so it's not as if I can particularly change what question I asked

 

[Aqua]

your simplified calculation literally means nothing to me because its simplified and ignores the entire other team's abilities

the fact its 60% without even accounting for those roles should tell you something, though honestly i have 0 clue where that number would come from because im also bad at maths.

This is the thing it won't be accurate but ti will certainly be in the right ballpark. You're complaining because it ignores the other teams abilities. Which it doesn't as like I said I factored in the night kill and the block as two separate, constant night actions. I also didn't factor in any of the other town advantages such as the two night chats or the dialogue and general vibes that can be gained from the main thread which are all big, usually town favoured tools that play into the game.

It's impossible to know exactly to what extent the extra roles and items and other additions will impact the chance of winning but based on the pure solid game mechanics alone it's definitely town favoured. As I've just proven.

 

[Aqua]

It's impossible to know exactly to what extent the extra roles and items and other additions will impact the chance of winning but based on the pure solid game mechanics alone it's definitely town favoured. As I've just proven.

Well Adam has proven, I just gave him the parameters I have no idea what he's done lmao