Kami's Realm - Survival Multiplayer
- Thread starter JtTorso
- Start date
Notme
Self-Aware Forum AI
I wonder if clans will have unique player ranks in them
How land is going to be divided between clans?
Will be there firestorms, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes and ummm... wood zombies?
How land is going to be divided between clans?
Will be there firestorms, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes and ummm... wood zombies?
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This makes it so so so much worse. If I run it 5 times in 20 hours I'd be lucky to have a decent full set of armor, while someone with 100 hours ran it 25 times and has 2-3 sets. There's no way to remedy it but remove it.
I had asked @Bannedkill the same question and he responded really well, so I'll just paste it here.
I don't like it at all, but it does have some logic behind it.
Rosekill's reasoning, while valid, especially during DoD's era, isn't the reason why we chose to make premade clans. Many of our decisions were based on creating longevity and trying new things, and while premade clans isn't particularly new or original it's something that hasn't been seen in a while. Putting people in a limited number of clans ideally makes people interact more and creates discussion and projects and makes people want to be involved and active. Our reason to prioritize PvP over PvE is for similar reasons, PvP creates conflict and people like to know or be involved in conflicts, this is something that was very apparent in DoD. Not to mention most of our past PvPs have favoured the passive players and we've decided to give the PvPers a chance at enjoying it how they would like to enjoy it.
True, but the fact that was difficult for me to get around was that no matter which clan I joined I was likely going to be told 'plz dont kill any1 we r peaceful!!one!' or 'w0w paceboys kills so many people and now i die for it, plz stop i try to grow sheeps only!1one!'. The solution was that oak told me that none of that would happen in his clan so it's fine, but otherwise it would be a huge issue.
If you've decided to
then you should remove potions and enchantments because any decent pvper knows how idiotic both are in a fight.
Yeah, I guess. I don't know how possible it is to just take out specific ones, but in that case you should prob remove;
sharp, knock, flame, fire, power, fire prot, proj. prot, prot, thorns, punch, infinity, and maybe unbreaking? Unbreaking's pretty much the only one that is useful for tools and weapons.
Applying the same logic to potions;
regen, swift, fire res, healing, night vision, strength, leaping, harming, invis, slowness, and poision.
Bold = Probably going to be disputed but hinders PvP more than it enhances PvE.
Notme
Self-Aware Forum AI
Well Primordia was even more hardcore on PvP - you couldn't even block chests with dirt, you had to make complex raidable redstone vaults to protect your chests. You could LWC couple chests though.
Also you can hide under truckload tons of stone or water or live in base very high up.
We could just make it so that the best gear/armor anyone can get is wood/leather. No?
Ok, so why are we trying to remove enchantments and potions again?
Oh right, it's because you guys are basing your opinions from when the SMPs' players were more scattered and less interactive with each other (seriously, even when I was playing for that one month in DoD, I was hard pressed to come across other villages... at least until the ending event).
you completely missed my meaning by 20 miles.
When I was saying bosses having their good drops be 80%-100% chance, this was more for the bosses each having only one special/powerful item. This way, you only really have to beat a boss once or twice to get all it really has to offer, and having 5 of the same special item (which will probably be something like a special sword or armor) will make no real difference than having just one, unless you plan to share with your clan.
And keep in mind, the intent of this SMP is to bring people closer together, which means we'll probably be sharing and trading a lot more than previously, so you could, after a certain point, get a bunch of diamond armor from your clan-mates who have more time to play than you.
This heightened interaction will probably be all we need to "balance" vanilla Minecraft items.
Just be sure that you don't try doing too much lone-wolf styled play if you don't have enough time to build up a decent arsenal ALL on your own.
Jayfeather
Gay Magician
never 5get primordia clans and how they worked better than any other system we used
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@nonpvpers: get gud nerds
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@nonpvpers: get gud nerds
No. Seeing as this is obviously a sarcastic statement made to provoke me I will now make all of my further statements based off the assumption that you a) have never played on a PvP server b) think the idea of a server based around fighting is stupid and c) are very, VERY bad at PvP in this game.
Once again, no. If you think the only minecraft server I have ever played on are blocktopia servers, I would have sold my minecraft account by now. I have put literally 0 thought into any past SMP servers in this community, because none of them were PvP centric. Furthermore, the PvP servers I have played on in the past, all removed/limited enchantments and potions. They favor people who spend 100 hours a week on minecraft thus bringing their PvP capabilities up to an even level with someone who is just good.
I can say with confidence that I could 1v1 the majority of people in this community (not other communities, I'm not very good) with a tier below of armor and come out with more than half health. If we repeated that same scenario with even gear and my opponent had strength/healing/regen/poision OR protection/sharpness, I will lose so fast you won't even have time to say 'go'.
Why do those simple things that everyone can get matter so much? How come those few concepts ruin the entire aspect of PvP? Because if you spend 100 hours getting a full set of protection 4 gear, you might hit me 5 times in the same time I hit you for 20 and you will do twice my damage. It's just a toxic stat in this game.
Let's look specifically at this scenario; Me (Iron Armor/Sword) vs You (Iron Armor with full protection 3 + sharpness 4 Iron sword)
From the Minecraft Wiki,
Each level separately adds 1.25 extra damage (× 1 1/4) to each hit (Referring to sharpness)
I do exactly 7 damage per hit with my Iron sword. (http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Damage) Since you have iron armor and full protection 3, my iron sword does exactly 4.83 damage per hit and 7.25 per critical hit. (The damage is then reduced by 4% per point of total effective EPF [This is based on a Type Modifier, for which Protection is .75.]) This means it takes me a total of 5 hits, or 3 critical hits to kill you.The player's current protection level is represented visually by the armor bar. Each defense point () represent 4% damage reduction.
You, on the other hand, do exactly 17.08984375 damage per hit. Since I have Iron armor, it does 10.25390625 damage per hit and 25.634765625 damage per critical hit. This means it takes a total of 2 hits, or 1 critical hit to kill me.
1 single click.
There is no justification for this. This is not balanced. Don't even try.
That STILL doesn't fix anything. If someone has 100 hours to run every dungeon twice and I've got 20 hours to run 3 of them once, there is still no balance or removal of toxicity that would justify any of this. While 'sharing is caring', I'm still extremely against being forced to join a clan, so I'm not exactly in the mindset that I would share. That being said, then everyone would just flock to clans with people who have 100 hours to get good gear, eliminating the purpose of a clan based PvP server.
I'm not saying ANYTHING about gear types. Mining takes more skill than killing mindless enemies for 100 hours. Diamond gear vs Iron gear is an entirely different situation. I have done plenty of 'lone-wolf' styled play in the past, and succeeded more than I have in a group.
TL;DR
There are so many reason to remove enchants and potions I was having a hard time finding a place to start. If you want to make a PvP server, get rid of them. Simple as that.
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Nottykitten
Nomnomnom kitteh!
I don't think you've ever actually done PvP or have been raided have you? It's not about diamond armor. Anyone can get diamond armor and diamond armor itself is pretty balanced. It's about the enchantments that make it extremely overpowered. I just fail to see how me interacting with people in my clan will help little me with diamond armor defeat someone with Prot IV sharp V strength II. Because it's so ridiculously overpowered that it makes anyone that knows how to PvP practically undefeatable. When I'm walking around town and someone attacks me I will have exactly 0 chance to win that fight. If however, those enchantments and potions weren't in the game it would be a fair fight and give me a chance because I won't be 1-hit.
Now you might say "if it's so overpowered then why don't you go get it yourself". Thats because it's extremely boring and time-wasting to grind XP for gear that I'm gonna lose anyways. Because even with the same OP stuff any better PvP'er can easely kill me either in PvP or when I'm out building my ugly houses. And then I've wasted hours of my time on gear that I'll easely lose and what was the point of this exactly? O right to have fun. Well I don't call this fun at all.
But ofcourse if I don't waste hours of my time on grinding XP I can't defend myself when I'm building or walking around town or whatever and I lose all my stuff countless times. Thus whatever one I chose will be non-fun and result in me not joining the server again simply because neither options are fun.
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I think getting rid of PVP enchantments is a good idea, but I don't support the idea of getting rid of potions and all enchantments, as there are a lot of good uses for non-PVP enchantments and potions.
okay so i get that the enchant shit changes a lot and all, and thank pace for the math
but
how is pvp a skill, i dont really dabble in it myself because of my lag (is that still an in-joke? anyone remember?)
but from what i've seen it's a lot of click click where everyone has prot iv full diamond armor with a sharp five sword or maybe fire
and it's just
click click
spacebar
click click *right click*
so, based on my limited experience, pvp = least lag/fastest click wins, and sometimes people remember what crits are
does anyone even use the sword right click thing
also wolves, man, wolves i can understand
is there a mod for battlewolves we can install on this without breaking the map nvm that's dumb
enlighten me please
but
how is pvp a skill, i dont really dabble in it myself because of my lag (is that still an in-joke? anyone remember?)
but from what i've seen it's a lot of click click where everyone has prot iv full diamond armor with a sharp five sword or maybe fire
and it's just
click click
spacebar
click click *right click*
so, based on my limited experience, pvp = least lag/fastest click wins, and sometimes people remember what crits are
does anyone even use the sword right click thing
also wolves, man, wolves i can understand
enlighten me please
This has all been discussed in the past. In some cases, the issue has more to do with diamond equipment being so ridiculously powerful compared to other tiers, but I would certainly agree that sharpness and generic protection are bad for the game (bow power as well). I'd argue against removing niche enchants like fire prot and projectile prot, as they aren't a blanket solution to all problems and I think would create more interesting scenarios. Strength potions are a bit ridiculous as well, but I think all the other potion options are fine.
Realistically, pvpers tend to be the ones pushing any game to it's limit. There will always be a best in slot solution for games like minecraft. Even if we removed every enchant and potion, people with diamond equipment and some other frill like lava and water buckets become best. Good game play comes from having options that really are options though. Best in slot needs to be either something that can be argued, or guaranteed attainable for a certain amount of effort.
We also have to recognize that if the game is reduced to purely a matter of skill, a lot of people will stop trying when they see themselves consistently bested. And we should be offering a means for people to be rewarded for time spent. I still wouldn't hand them op equipment, but if dungeons reward gold equipment with sharp 1 or prot 1, I think people would be able to live with this (I'd probably make them reward shovels, axes and hoes with special names and non-combat enchants).
Overall though, this isn't just a pvp server either. So while I agree that we would be better off without some things (sharpness, power, protection and str pots) and I could be wrong about the things I think are fine, it should take more than a pvp argument to remove every enchant and potion that you listed.
-exactly- why enchants need to be removed
if everyone has the same gear it's either lag or skill, but in reality it's skill with lag as an excuse for failure. There are various tactics which I will not mention (No they're not hacks u silly bear) which many people use to increase their success in PvP. Go on teamspeak and poke me if you'd like a better explanation.
Enchants and potions tip the scales way more than lag, and lag isn't something you can just 'remove'.
Lava and water buckets are a different story because of griefing rules in many areas.
Anyone can get diamond gear, and in my opinion mining takes more skill than killing mobs brainlessly for 10 hours to get gear that can't be fought against.
Sharp 1 is still a big difference than regular swords, same with prot 1 vs regular armor. Just take them all out, there's no point to keep them.
I thought this server WAS A PvP server.
I believe it being a PvP server justifies my reasoning behind having PvP related arguments be the reasoning behind why enchantments and potions be removed, being that it's bad for pvp (not going to restate my 5 posts if you (you as in whoever's reading this) haven't read them all yet)
whoops I doubleposted please don't delete this post
for whatever reason I can't edit posts properly, if it's a big issue and someone wants to edit this post into the above post please go ahead
HEYYY thanks for fixing the doublepost, I'm really bad at editing 2 posts into one for some reason
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OH! Here we go, back to the whole skill thing!
Welcome to Escape Restart, where we are trying to make a community, a community, where everyone is welcome!
So, by changing the norm of obtaining they best kind of equipment from killing a bunch of endermen for enchantments to making us HAVE to find diamonds; first of all, aren't we trying to avoid letting the skillful people flatten whoever is less fortunate?
And second, there is very little skill in mining diamonds, as the process is almost entirely luck-based.
Granted, there are strategies to obtain diamonds faster, but the person with 20 hours is probably better off taking advantage of the new 1.8 enchanting system than vainly burning hours in search of enough diamonds to be able to rival the person with 100 hours.
The problem is that you people are thinking about 1v1.
Yes, this is going to be a pvp SMP.
That does not change the fact that, with only 5 clans instead of 100+ villages, the odds of a 1v1 scenario is much less than something like a 5v5 or a 5v3v7v4 scenario.
With more people being in these clans, you're person with 20 hours will probably find that some other person with 100 hours, who is on the same clan, will have already made 6 or 7 sets of enchanted armor, thus the person with 20 hours won't even have to worry about mining and enchanting.
This is why it is going to be so hard to play as a lone wolf.
Team work is the one true counter-balance against scheduling inconveniences, which won't remove aspects that some other people might like.
Jayfeather
Gay Magician
Here I want to say something:
1.) Mining diamonds is fundamental Minecraft. It's the game that you guys claim to enjoy - why would you say you'd rather cheat the system and abuse endermen spawns rather than mine if this is the case?
2.) This is a PVP server, but likely there will be MANY tools in place to prevent PVP coming down upon people who don't wish it and there will also likely be excessive ways to avoid it just as the base game Minecraft is. So pulling this tired ass excuse of "we should welcome everyone you're making this way too hard for the NEW PLAYERS" isn't on solid ground when they will almost certainly receive no end to protection. Not to mention that removing enchantments (what the argument is about) balances PVP and has no effect on new players.
3.) This server SEEMS to be setup much like Primordia, so let me call in my personal experience: I was only involved in one group raid (thanks Defiant_Blob that was fun btw) and the rest was me raiding clans and running into their members one by one while I was in their territory. Much of this setup involves 1v1's and 2v2's that happen gradually over time, not really 10v10's or even 5v5's. Lone wolves are also less likely to be caught than a large party
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Hunter so basically minecraft pvp has the lowest skill ceiling of any game you could imagine but there is tangible "skill" in pvping at the end of the day. Certain strategies to abuse the game's mechanics that give you edges over other players and generally being quicker and more aware of the situation
yea this whole 'skill thing' what a waste of time. why should we be good at anything when we can just do boring tasks for 100 hours and then be 'good' by default?
Dude, it's like you're arguing against needing to do any work in your life ever. 'Why should WE need to go FIND diamonds, we can just grind endermen and enchant them!!' like seriously are you reading what you're saying? You must be REALLY bad at mining if you can't find 26 diamonds in 100 hours of playtime.
Mining is not luck based. Sorry. You could argue that it's random in which chunks diamonds will spawn, but it's not luck based.
Doesn't matter if it's 1v1. If I'm fighting 4v4 and my 3 teammates and myself are in iron and my 4 opponents all spent 100 hours grinding prot 3 sharp 4 gear, we are going to lose. In the same fight, if we were all in iron, we'd win. It's a simple as this: PvP Requires Skill. When you try to take the skill out of it, you get a bunch of people sitting there killing endermen for 100 hours to then 1shot everyone who has better things to do every day.
If I had the option, I would play as a lone wolf. I firmly believe I would have more success as a lone wolf than half of the clans listed above, and you could hold me to that statement. The ONLY reason I make that statement is I know that the majority of PvPers in this community rely solely on enchants and grinding, and are very very weak without them. groobyman/XDA1 (poor guy, he was a legend, I could never beat him) was the #1 pvper in this community for as long as he was in it, able to 1v5 on numerous occasions and he NEVER used enchantments. He did use potions, but his enemies used potions and enchantments. He had skill. And skill is what makes PvP viable in any game, and potions + enchantments make the level of skill needed to succeed very, VERY low.
Your move.
A lot of good points have been made and argued here, and there are a number of things I am more than willing to discuss with Oak. I just ask that we remain calm and try to avoid getting personal so we can continue to have these excellent discussions.
paceboys should consider joining a debate team considering how well you've made your points.
paceboys should consider joining a debate team considering how well you've made your points.
Thanks, glad I was able to get my message across. A lot of my posts on the forums are absolute trash, I'm just glad when I tried to make a serious post it turned out how I hoped it would. I'm going to sleep now and I'll be able to respond to anything in the morning.
I'll have you know, that statement of "mining diamonds is luck based" was generalized around caving and not using the knowledge of diamond ore generation to one's advantage.
The idea that a person should not have to work in life is the same idea as that of a person not living at all.
My argument was not against working, but against screwing less talented PVPers over to those who could probably floor you if you had full diamond armor VS their stone sword.
My argument was also for working smart over working hard, or put simply, playing to one's strengths for the good of the team.
Jayfeather
Gay Magician
Since it seems there will be no lone wolves, that means you can work towards helping your specific clan in ways you choose. If I want to resource gather I'm sure there will be a need for that. If I want to be a fighter, well, this is a PVP server which must mean there are going to be people to fight. To remove enchantments and to limit bosses' effects on player equipment is to gear the balance towards who can produce the most results on their own rather than who can grind for the longest time. It rewards the players that do legitimately well over the ones that, well, don't. It won't affect you any if you choose to produce rather than to defend though.