PvE Base Raiding
- Thread starter TechnoViking
- Start date
Well the person that has been doing it to us has been showing up for an hour then leaving for a minute then coming back for an hour then because I know for sure that there have been people running around our town for a good span of time.
It still doesn't fix the issue its just another "favor band-aid" that favors people who enjoy PvP. We don't want it at all in the PvE area, doesn't matter if its only an hour. If you wanna steal and fight each other, then go to the PvP area, that's what its for. Don't try to force people who don't wanna PvP to PvP, it's a good way to get people to quit and not wanna play, and make a community drift apart. If you don't have enough people to PvP with, try advertising for the server so more people will join, or ask the PvE people if they would like to hold a fun tournament where the winner gets a prize. Think of ways to bring the server together so we can all have fun, not force people to do something they don't wanna do and annoy them till they quit because its not fun for them anymore. That's a fast way to kill a server.
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I'm not raiding till im in your base. Otherwise i'm just minding my own business. There's no saying that you can't be within range of someone's base for a long time.
If we protect chests in PvE as well you will make the benefit of living in PvE too big. Both PvE-ers and PvP-ers will move over to PvP zone in order to not get raided, and the few bases who wont will get constantly raided as they are the only option to raid. I fear dissallowing stealing in PvE will reduce a high ammount of the players playing as many enjoy the fighting and raiding.
Most of the issues you are addressing can be solves quite easily.
- Block of your entrances or make a wall
However, I agree that there should be done something about people staying inside the base. In PvP zone this isn’t a problem since the intruders can be killed. However in PvE zone you can’t and there aren’t any (formal) restrictions to how long you can stay in the base. I am not sure what to do about this problem, but maybe make it so that a player only can stay in a base for x mins after they have been spotted by the town members. In aod there there is a /spot command so maybe use something like that, which damages a player after the time is out?
Most of the issues you are addressing can be solves quite easily.
- [BCOLOR=transparent][BCOLOR=transparent]Camping outside someones base with or without potion/nightcloak invisibility so you can follow the owner into the base whenever he opens a door[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
- [BCOLOR=transparent][BCOLOR=transparent]Using the TP of nightcloaks to teleport through non solid blocks like slabs etc[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
- [BCOLOR=transparent][BCOLOR=transparent]Block lagging through walls etc. which will not be detectable[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
- [BCOLOR=transparent][BCOLOR=transparent]Using water flows to get over walls (could be done by placing them and then afterwards removing them)[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
- [BCOLOR=transparent][BCOLOR=transparent]Ender Pearls and chorus fruits (luckily they are disabled on this server though)[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
- [BCOLOR=transparent][BCOLOR=transparent]Using horses to jump over walls that you would otherwise not be able to jump over (while on this topic you could also try trapping peoples horses that try raiding your base by making the walls to high to jump over from the inside, are you allowed to keep the horse of whoever tried raiding you this way?)[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
- [BCOLOR=transparent][BCOLOR=transparent]Using rabbit potions to get around obstacles or walls[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
- Block of your entrances or make a wall
However, I agree that there should be done something about people staying inside the base. In PvP zone this isn’t a problem since the intruders can be killed. However in PvE zone you can’t and there aren’t any (formal) restrictions to how long you can stay in the base. I am not sure what to do about this problem, but maybe make it so that a player only can stay in a base for x mins after they have been spotted by the town members. In aod there there is a /spot command so maybe use something like that, which damages a player after the time is out?
I've been meaning to make a post myself, but these two posts sort of catch my thoughts. I don't think simply disallowing raiding in pve is a good things for the server, however I do feel something needs to be change.
SalientGorilla
The Brutal Create Dictator
I like raiding and making people cry like wet cabbages, it brings me joy. However, I don't see why you should be able to raid in an area where you can't defend your things. The PvE area is PLAYER vs ENVIROMENT, raiding a PLAYER is a PLAYER vs PLAYER action.
You also shouldn't be able to hurt players animals that are in a pen. Again, this is a PvP action.
You also shouldn't be able to hurt players animals that are in a pen. Again, this is a PvP action.
SalientGorilla
The Brutal Create Dictator
did that on purpose to see if anyone read it
Kagamiiragi
Member
The greater issue is that I have to be constantly mindful or idiots who feel like breaking the rules and putting my base out of commission for atleast an entire day while the mods sort it out (yes talking about illigal raiding here). It also means you need to lock your chest literally every time you don't use it, which is a pain in the behind, because although you may not have experienced it yourself, there are people trying to sneak in or actively circle your base to find openings to get in. It's NOT just paranoia it is actually happening and I hate it. There basically is no PvE zone atm.
Kagamiiragi
Member
Or instead of literally dividing the playerbase, make it so the PvP area has interesting events or areas that plays WANT to be close to. At the moment the best gear already spawns in PvP zone chests right? If you build your base there you're obviously mindful of the consequences, but you also get the best gear easily. If you're scared of PvE players raiding your stuff just go sit on the border. Point is, the PvP zone is supposed to be this dangerous wild west, so putting protection there makes little sense in my opinion.
IMO PvE raiding should be the same as raiding was in LoP chests can’t be locked and have to be accessible but clans can make intricate vaults that require a process of parkour or combinations to get to. And PvP raiding remains the same this way players choose which they prefer.
SalientGorilla
The Brutal Create Dictator
That would be a good compromise but only if the defending player could also build traps that kill the attacking player as well and maybe even allow the defender to attack the attacker with splash damage potions.
Or idea, dont make cities, villages or settlements look like trash by having to put blocks over furnaces, chests and entrances to prevent people from stealing your hard work *shrug* . like saying "oh you didnt put your car in your garage its free game to steal from it because it wasn't protected" like what kind of logic and thought went into "hey lets let people raid other peoples hard work and they can't defend it because its in a PvE zone thats smart! :D"
think if we wanted to pvp we would *claps hands* go to the pvp zone. I cant speak for everyone but I don't believe they want to do anything to negatively effect others playing, whats the point of a pve zone in the first place then? I dont see the point in allowing others to steal your belongings in a Pve zone in the first place, that would just cause tension where it doesnt belong, if your in a pvp zone thats fair game because you chose to play in there. The mere fact you have to guard your belongings almost all the time ruins alot of the fun in the game. And the gall that people cant defend there area because its pve is the stupidest thing. So people can steal but I cant defend my stuff??
Back to the question, no no I don't it's childish and looks poorly.
Honestly, no- and I feel I can speak for my entire town here x’D. If we want to approach PvP we’ll go to the respective zone for it. I don’t get any enjoyment out of taking someones stuff if they just happened to leave a block off, or swiping loose charcoal from furnaces.
Normally I just like to build and visit the cool structures that are in other towns but with the current rules in effect, I have to suddenly worry about if theres any open chests the moment someone comes to our town to check it out, enemy or not.
To build off Saliants’ post, its frustrating that I have to worry about players in a pve zone yanno? The rule feels like a relic from past servers.
I've already had my fair share of say in this, but honestly I couldn't care less if raiding was here or not. Raiding is a fun part AFTER I had some type of risk on it. waiting for someone to open his door and unkowningly let me in is just an obnoxiuous way of looking to raid. I would rather have some pvp tied to it, thats all. if they kill me, then that's their right and nobody should be salty having the risk of dying trying to attack other bases. But now it's no risk HIGH reward. worst trade deal in history smh my head.
But I really like the events system, make it so its something you have to walk through and it gives a server announcement in the chat when the vaults open or something. that should attract some pvp and should keep everyone happy.
Notme
Self-Aware Forum AI
I guess we need LWC plugin.
LWC your personal chests, so no one else can access.
Not sure what about community chests, that are meant to be accessed by all clan members.
Maybe just plain old community vault could be built somewhere - can be door LWC'D so only clan members can use it?
LWC your personal chests, so no one else can access.
Not sure what about community chests, that are meant to be accessed by all clan members.
Maybe just plain old community vault could be built somewhere - can be door LWC'D so only clan members can use it?
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Kagamiiragi
Member
No obviously not, it's a PvE town. This server has a lot going for it, but forcing PvP in a PvE area is nonsense. If you're scared of PvE getting 'too big an advantage over PvP towns' then just make seperate servers (or make PvP zones more enticing/rewarding to live in) . You can't seriously say to PvE players "yeah because the PvP'ers voluntarily handicap their own base you're forced to do PvP otherwise you have too big an advantage". Like what even is that logic? You shouldn't have a PvE area at all if that's a concern of yours.
Burnt_Pixels
Member
This is all such a silly discussion to begin with. >.> "You can toats steal from peeps, and even if they're watching you do it, they cant do a thing about it."" That's so DUMB, Player vs. Player mechanics should STAY in the PvP zone, not ooze its way into an otherwise enjoyable Player vs. E N V I R O N M E N T experience. Just a thought.
I honestly don't see a need for a rule that prevents raiding in PvE as raiders are already declawed. Invisibility potions are disabled, so are jumping potions and enderpearls. You also cant break or build, even if you repair/demolish afterwards, and use buckets of water in the same way. The only way to obtain invisibility is to switch and level a class for the purpose, in addition to removing your own equipment.
It is for these reasons I struggle to see the issue certain PvE players claim to be experiencing, as they are already informed of the danger and solution, yet refuse out of laziness, and then demanding the rules be changed to favor them even more. Stop expecting everyone to bend to your 'needs' when you already have the tools to fix the problem yourself.
It is for these reasons I struggle to see the issue certain PvE players claim to be experiencing, as they are already informed of the danger and solution, yet refuse out of laziness, and then demanding the rules be changed to favor them even more. Stop expecting everyone to bend to your 'needs' when you already have the tools to fix the problem yourself.
Comp
AoD Dev and Admin!
Personally I don't really like raiding, I much prefer just making cool bases and exploring.
Perhaps the town plugin could be modified so that each town inside the PVE zone has an area, and inside that area only town members can break and place blocks, and take items from chests and furnaces? That way, players who don't want to be raided and just build can do so.
Ideally maybe having 3 distinct areas could have been more beneficial - PVE, PVE with raiding, and PVP, though probably a bit too late for that.
Maybe another idea, is you can only steal items from chests in PVE if both your town and the town you are trying to take items from have some raiding option enabled? It would mean that you could only raid if you yourself can be raided.
Perhaps a combination of these could work, and I think having block protections on towns would be a good idea in general. Actually maybe a way to expand your territory using emeralds. Just some ideas
Perhaps the town plugin could be modified so that each town inside the PVE zone has an area, and inside that area only town members can break and place blocks, and take items from chests and furnaces? That way, players who don't want to be raided and just build can do so.
Ideally maybe having 3 distinct areas could have been more beneficial - PVE, PVE with raiding, and PVP, though probably a bit too late for that.
Maybe another idea, is you can only steal items from chests in PVE if both your town and the town you are trying to take items from have some raiding option enabled? It would mean that you could only raid if you yourself can be raided.
Perhaps a combination of these could work, and I think having block protections on towns would be a good idea in general. Actually maybe a way to expand your territory using emeralds. Just some ideas
TechnoViking
Member
Wow I didn't expect so many people replying in a short period of time. I can see there is a big divide between players that really like to raid and those that don't.
That being said when I read through the comments I see a lot of non constructive or plain destructive comments that do not really add anything to the conversation, its fine to disagree but try to represent your own side of the story when you do and we can all understand each other better.
One side of the story I didn't really dig into enough I want to represent more clearly. The core of my issue with the current system is the feeling of paranoia after getting raided no matter whether it was a legal raid or not. Yesterday and the day before I have had around 6 different people visiting my town asking for a tour, I have only ever given the people who later on raided me illegally a tour in my base. after their visit but before they raided me I already learned that you cannot trust people on this server with the current systems in place. Just something simple like giving someone a small tour gives someone a huge opportunity already to plan out how to raid you. I will have to log in after writing this post and the first thing ill have to do is check if no one broke into my stuff and afterwards hid their trail to elude the moderation team. I had to make over 20 screenshots of all my enchanted gear when I logged out yesterday because I didn't want to loose all my enchanted gear again just because someone felt like they where entitled to my things.
This feeling of paranoia turned out to be justified, I kept telling myself things like "Im sure this server just doesn't do chest protection because almost no one ever abuses this" or stuff like "If I just never kill or raid someone they'll never want to raid me" this was incorrect and the resulting situation if a raid was legal is arguably even worse since the affected party will just have to deal with the fact that their stuff they worked hard on is gone. This is fair game when you can retaliate and try to get your stuff back but currently you can only attack by war of attrition, this in itself will create an toxic community.
A good example of how this base raiding should be executed is shown in the ways of my friend _Mr_Matt_
He lives in the PvP zone and doesn't have some extra base in the PvE zone, he finds enjoyment out of fucking people up that are trying to live or loot on his turf and has no problem with doing anything to keep them far away from his territory, this includes things like literally emptying every chest he can and killing anything he is allowed to in order to make sure that the other side suffers enough that they cannot or do not want to retaliate. Personally I can definitely see the allure of trying your best to raid someone. There is a feeling of satisfaction to be found in knowing the other party is fucked and has to go through the effort of gathering everything they lost again.
Personally I felt a warm fuzzy feeling when I found the base of the people that raided me unlocked, I started to get aroused by the time I started finding chests with valuables in them with conveniently placed fires nearby to delete these valuables. And I never slept so cozy and happy when the last thing I heard before I logged of was that the people who raided me where looking for a town to join and members of VTS being told that the clan has mostly disbanded because of internal power struggle. Then as cherry on top I heard from a friend that one of the people that actually looted our stuff later asked what happened to his music discs after which he got told how they all burned so he'll never be able to steal them back. These things make me happy and personally this is what would drive PvE base raiding for me, I cannot know why others would like to raid someone else his base who lives in PvE but I can assume why someone would and I assume that its for reasons that are at least similar to mine, if not then with the lack of compassion you show to others I feel that you likely are even more sociopathic then I am.
I find there should be a way for people to opt out of this world of raiding, some people have different drives to play on this server and rather never deal with having to check all their possessions daily to see if they got raided or not, they do not want to live with this paranoia not even being able to give someone a base tour because you never know if they will just come in the same night to steal everything you own, or to have to block of every chest you own because someone can casually visit you and take everything you forgot to lock while building.
However it should also be said that it is best that when someone wants to opt out of this raiding he should truly opt out and not play both sides of the coin and still raid people who live in PvP. I understand that this is extremely unfair and nasty towards people that do love raiding, and they should be able to raid others if they wish to raid them, therefore the solution I originally offered should not be this black and white I feel.
The problem
I think the most important thing we can do is look at the options we have and find something that everyone can live with, Im sure with the input from both the people that are in favor of PvE raiding and against PvE raiding we can find an common ground to base future systems on.
For this I find it best to sum up the problems as I've interpreted them in this thread.
In PvE you cannot defend yourself when someone actually breaks into your base.
You could make airlocks / put blocks on chests / close of your base / build traps but in the end if there is an exploit in your defense system you will be raided if someone doesn't like you and all you can do is watch while people just go crazy and destroy anything you or your friends forgot to lock.
In PvP you cannot defend yourself when someone comes over from the PvE zone and raids your base.
Anything they steal they could just bring back to their base in the PvE zone safely locked in their chests. I can understand this problem but this problem currently already exists even from raiding each other within the PvP zone I'd like to point this out since you can just block of the chest with the raided goods.
Currently you can already block your chests by placing a block on them or blocking of your storage room from possible raiders.
This is true but part of the problem is also the feeling of paranoia and always having to check whether anything got stolen or not. and if something does get stolen illegally there is a good chance with for example enchanted gear and large storage's that the moderation team will have to hard of an time refunding all your items and gear since you cant just ask of them to dedicate their lifes to a minecraft server as was the case when I was raided. A good example of the problems this brings with itself is the following.
https://gyazo.com/a1fc78da1c0331ec858390ba58bf12cd
I have to literally check each and every chest I own and every single enchanted item or piece of gear I own to check whether I got raided or not, if I do not take screenshots of all my stuff from now on I risk getting raided and losing things without being able to track what I lost and I wont be able to ask for a refund on the enchanted gear. I'm pretty sure I had more stuff then I got refunded but I did not know for sure since I did not screenshot the content of my base before I got raided, therefore I lost pretty significant things like max enchanted toolsets I had prepared for my friends to use.
SMP's have historically always allowed stealing if you have your chest uncovered.
I have not played on previous SMP's but I've seen that these previous SMP's are no longer running, I'm not saying that it was because of the chest locking rules but I do not think SMP's that are dead are an good example for a server we rather not have dead. I'd love to hear from older players on this server what did work though and why it worked so well like that, currently we are just a few days into this new launch and things already went wrong.
If it's impossible to raid PvE areas then you're basically limiting only 1/3 of the map to be able to be raidable.
Personally I see no problem with this, 1/3 of the map encompasses a pretty large area where a lot of players will be able to live, the smaller size also makes it so that its more likely to encounter other players to PvP with which seems more of an pro then a con to me.
There are way more people hiding in PvE than PvP and there should be ways for PvP or PvE players to raid one another.
I think there is to much of an sacrifice to be made when you allow PvE and PvP to interact with each other this way, it would be way better to opt into PvP instead of being raided.
When you get trapped in someones base you can dig your way out.
This will allow people to get into your base if someone else jumped into your base and later had to dug his way out since you didn't leave any entrances. This loophole opens up quite a dodgy grey area where people can just raid you even if you locked your base down, another example would be a branch mine accidentally touching your base.
It should be allowed, you just need to block your chests. That way it makes things more fun/interesting and adds another layer to the server.
There are people that just do not find it fun, fun isn't a factual measurement and quite an hard argument to expand upon. Even though that is why I do not fully comprehend this comment I think its an important one to point out to represent both sides of the story.
the last few SMPs died early because of a serious clashing between the PvE and PvP players constantly being forced together, and I think we have a bit of a unique opportunity to put a stop to that this time.
An insightful comment especially for people like me that did not experience previous SMP's I agree with this but cannot expand upon this since I did not experience previous SMP's.
Aesthetically its inconvenient to raid proof your base.
I agree with this, I've seen solutions being offered like putting opaque blocks on top of your chests and the like but these will have to be recrafted every time and still clash with what some people find aesthetically pleasing. Another solution is to make an dedicated vault where you can store all your gear but this also will need close able entrances which you will have to break every time you have to grab something and just detracts from the game play. Also these vaults would need to have airlocks which add another layer of irritation whenever you want to do something in your base.
The Solution
Next to these problems I've read there are already many solutions offered, since this does seem to be an issue for many people in favor or against it seems to be best to at least also look at the solutions.
This does not solve the paranoia or players trying to cheat the system, for example: what if person A breaks into your base "accidentally" and then on non monitored channels tells person B how to get into someones base without breaking the rules. If you cannot proof player A's link to player B then player B has raided you legally, therefore there will be nothing you could do if you are the one supposed to monitor your own chests. Besides I'm pretty sure being able to check who uses certain chests can bring new exploits along.
My Solution
As promised earlier I'd like to offer some ideas me and my friends thought of.
My earlier offered solution of mainly being able to lock chests still stands, but in order to prevent issues like the PvP community being shut down by chest locking I'd say to allow base raiding in certain conditions. You could say for example that two factions could agree to being raided and for this occasions mark a few chests with signs to be raided in this event. after agreeing on a time and place these factions could duke it out until either of them concedes and lets the other party raid them. A few simple rules to enforce this system would be to unlock the chest to the other faction and allowing each other to take a look inside of the raid chest so both parties can agree on the raid being reasonable. next to that both factions could also discus win conditions to their liking whether it be guerrilla warfare in the PvP zone or one on one duels of the faction members for example.
Another solution could be to allow people to opt into the PvP scene, in order to have a town in the PvP area and be allowed to actually raid others you'd have to found an outpost in the PvP zone yourself that offers sufficient loot for other people to raid, this raid able loot would have to be stored in an unlocked and accessible chest. there would have to be rules about what would be stored in a chest like this but I think an easy rule would be at least the amount emerald it takes to found your town (200 for starters, 1.2k for city's, 6.2k for empires). once you get raided and are unable to fund your raid chest within the next few days you'd lose the right to raid and will be asked to vacate the PvP zone within a reasonable amount of time. In a system like this I'd suggest to allow the raiding of others in the PvP zone if they do not own an official outpost to prevent people from locking chests freely in the PvP zone, if someone still does lock a chest within the PvP zone a mod can be asked to unlock and warn the person who locked it. With this system if someone gets raided and no one claims to be the raiders the mods only have to check 1 single unlocked chest in order to determine whether the raid was legal or not.
These solutions don't have to be exclusive and would offer in my opinion a more interesting and less toxic and abusable raid system then currently in place. But I'd love to hear other ideas or opinions about this matter even if they stray from my views on this topic.
EDIT:
TL;DR
Sorry forgot the TL;DR for some people, basically the issue isn't as black and white as I originally described it and this thread showed me that.
I propose a mutual agreement warring system tgt with chest locking so people can still PvP, also please refrain from baseless arguing and try going into discussion with each other and understand each other so we can find a solution that makes everyone happy.
Comments like these really do well to represent both perspectives on this story and offer an solution, this really made me reconsider about the implications of my offered solution and the people into raiding as well. I can see there are two sides to the coin here and that any chest locking system will seriously affect the raiding player base, therefore the issue is not truly black and white and we should carefully try to reconsider possible solutions available to us.
That being said when I read through the comments I see a lot of non constructive or plain destructive comments that do not really add anything to the conversation, its fine to disagree but try to represent your own side of the story when you do and we can all understand each other better.
One side of the story I didn't really dig into enough I want to represent more clearly. The core of my issue with the current system is the feeling of paranoia after getting raided no matter whether it was a legal raid or not. Yesterday and the day before I have had around 6 different people visiting my town asking for a tour, I have only ever given the people who later on raided me illegally a tour in my base. after their visit but before they raided me I already learned that you cannot trust people on this server with the current systems in place. Just something simple like giving someone a small tour gives someone a huge opportunity already to plan out how to raid you. I will have to log in after writing this post and the first thing ill have to do is check if no one broke into my stuff and afterwards hid their trail to elude the moderation team. I had to make over 20 screenshots of all my enchanted gear when I logged out yesterday because I didn't want to loose all my enchanted gear again just because someone felt like they where entitled to my things.
This feeling of paranoia turned out to be justified, I kept telling myself things like "Im sure this server just doesn't do chest protection because almost no one ever abuses this" or stuff like "If I just never kill or raid someone they'll never want to raid me" this was incorrect and the resulting situation if a raid was legal is arguably even worse since the affected party will just have to deal with the fact that their stuff they worked hard on is gone. This is fair game when you can retaliate and try to get your stuff back but currently you can only attack by war of attrition, this in itself will create an toxic community.
A good example of how this base raiding should be executed is shown in the ways of my friend _Mr_Matt_
He lives in the PvP zone and doesn't have some extra base in the PvE zone, he finds enjoyment out of fucking people up that are trying to live or loot on his turf and has no problem with doing anything to keep them far away from his territory, this includes things like literally emptying every chest he can and killing anything he is allowed to in order to make sure that the other side suffers enough that they cannot or do not want to retaliate. Personally I can definitely see the allure of trying your best to raid someone. There is a feeling of satisfaction to be found in knowing the other party is fucked and has to go through the effort of gathering everything they lost again.
Personally I felt a warm fuzzy feeling when I found the base of the people that raided me unlocked, I started to get aroused by the time I started finding chests with valuables in them with conveniently placed fires nearby to delete these valuables. And I never slept so cozy and happy when the last thing I heard before I logged of was that the people who raided me where looking for a town to join and members of VTS being told that the clan has mostly disbanded because of internal power struggle. Then as cherry on top I heard from a friend that one of the people that actually looted our stuff later asked what happened to his music discs after which he got told how they all burned so he'll never be able to steal them back. These things make me happy and personally this is what would drive PvE base raiding for me, I cannot know why others would like to raid someone else his base who lives in PvE but I can assume why someone would and I assume that its for reasons that are at least similar to mine, if not then with the lack of compassion you show to others I feel that you likely are even more sociopathic then I am.
I find there should be a way for people to opt out of this world of raiding, some people have different drives to play on this server and rather never deal with having to check all their possessions daily to see if they got raided or not, they do not want to live with this paranoia not even being able to give someone a base tour because you never know if they will just come in the same night to steal everything you own, or to have to block of every chest you own because someone can casually visit you and take everything you forgot to lock while building.
However it should also be said that it is best that when someone wants to opt out of this raiding he should truly opt out and not play both sides of the coin and still raid people who live in PvP. I understand that this is extremely unfair and nasty towards people that do love raiding, and they should be able to raid others if they wish to raid them, therefore the solution I originally offered should not be this black and white I feel.
The problem
I think the most important thing we can do is look at the options we have and find something that everyone can live with, Im sure with the input from both the people that are in favor of PvE raiding and against PvE raiding we can find an common ground to base future systems on.
For this I find it best to sum up the problems as I've interpreted them in this thread.
In PvE you cannot defend yourself when someone actually breaks into your base.
You could make airlocks / put blocks on chests / close of your base / build traps but in the end if there is an exploit in your defense system you will be raided if someone doesn't like you and all you can do is watch while people just go crazy and destroy anything you or your friends forgot to lock.
In PvP you cannot defend yourself when someone comes over from the PvE zone and raids your base.
Anything they steal they could just bring back to their base in the PvE zone safely locked in their chests. I can understand this problem but this problem currently already exists even from raiding each other within the PvP zone I'd like to point this out since you can just block of the chest with the raided goods.
Currently you can already block your chests by placing a block on them or blocking of your storage room from possible raiders.
This is true but part of the problem is also the feeling of paranoia and always having to check whether anything got stolen or not. and if something does get stolen illegally there is a good chance with for example enchanted gear and large storage's that the moderation team will have to hard of an time refunding all your items and gear since you cant just ask of them to dedicate their lifes to a minecraft server as was the case when I was raided. A good example of the problems this brings with itself is the following.
https://gyazo.com/a1fc78da1c0331ec858390ba58bf12cd
I have to literally check each and every chest I own and every single enchanted item or piece of gear I own to check whether I got raided or not, if I do not take screenshots of all my stuff from now on I risk getting raided and losing things without being able to track what I lost and I wont be able to ask for a refund on the enchanted gear. I'm pretty sure I had more stuff then I got refunded but I did not know for sure since I did not screenshot the content of my base before I got raided, therefore I lost pretty significant things like max enchanted toolsets I had prepared for my friends to use.
SMP's have historically always allowed stealing if you have your chest uncovered.
I have not played on previous SMP's but I've seen that these previous SMP's are no longer running, I'm not saying that it was because of the chest locking rules but I do not think SMP's that are dead are an good example for a server we rather not have dead. I'd love to hear from older players on this server what did work though and why it worked so well like that, currently we are just a few days into this new launch and things already went wrong.
If it's impossible to raid PvE areas then you're basically limiting only 1/3 of the map to be able to be raidable.
Personally I see no problem with this, 1/3 of the map encompasses a pretty large area where a lot of players will be able to live, the smaller size also makes it so that its more likely to encounter other players to PvP with which seems more of an pro then a con to me.
There are way more people hiding in PvE than PvP and there should be ways for PvP or PvE players to raid one another.
I think there is to much of an sacrifice to be made when you allow PvE and PvP to interact with each other this way, it would be way better to opt into PvP instead of being raided.
When you get trapped in someones base you can dig your way out.
This will allow people to get into your base if someone else jumped into your base and later had to dug his way out since you didn't leave any entrances. This loophole opens up quite a dodgy grey area where people can just raid you even if you locked your base down, another example would be a branch mine accidentally touching your base.
It should be allowed, you just need to block your chests. That way it makes things more fun/interesting and adds another layer to the server.
There are people that just do not find it fun, fun isn't a factual measurement and quite an hard argument to expand upon. Even though that is why I do not fully comprehend this comment I think its an important one to point out to represent both sides of the story.
the last few SMPs died early because of a serious clashing between the PvE and PvP players constantly being forced together, and I think we have a bit of a unique opportunity to put a stop to that this time.
An insightful comment especially for people like me that did not experience previous SMP's I agree with this but cannot expand upon this since I did not experience previous SMP's.
Aesthetically its inconvenient to raid proof your base.
I agree with this, I've seen solutions being offered like putting opaque blocks on top of your chests and the like but these will have to be recrafted every time and still clash with what some people find aesthetically pleasing. Another solution is to make an dedicated vault where you can store all your gear but this also will need close able entrances which you will have to break every time you have to grab something and just detracts from the game play. Also these vaults would need to have airlocks which add another layer of irritation whenever you want to do something in your base.
The Solution
Next to these problems I've read there are already many solutions offered, since this does seem to be an issue for many people in favor or against it seems to be best to at least also look at the solutions.
These solutions offered are sound on the premise that no one cheats the system, this in itself is fine but as stated by myself and others that it does bring the issue of constant paranoia and people being able to cheat. This paranoia and the fact that I did get griefed beyond repair where the mods just couldn't refund everything (which I absolutely do not blame the mods for btw) makes this these solutions pretty bad in my opinion, I would rather explore other options and many seem to agree with me. I'd also be cautious about assuming what can or cannot be detectable, you will both need the systems to detect certain exploits and the mods that have time to do so. In some cases I'm quite sure that something will just be undetectable due to the scale of something and time constraints.Here's ways to fix your issues:
Make an airlock. Nightcloak only works in certain light levels and you will see the particles when you're in the airlock. Easy fix.
- [BCOLOR=#ffcc00]Camping outside someones base with or without potion/nightcloak invisibility so you can follow the owner into the base whenever he opens a door[/BCOLOR]
This is glitching, which is against the rules
- [BCOLOR=#ffcc00]Using the TP of nightcloaks to teleport through non solid blocks like slabs etc[/BCOLOR]
This is glitching, which is against the rules. Also blocklagging only really works with 1-1.5 high blocks not 10.
- [BCOLOR=#ffcc00]Block lagging through walls etc. which will not be detectable[/BCOLOR]
This can be detected and is against the rules as you are building on someones claimed land.
- [BCOLOR=#ffcc00]Using water flows to get over walls (could be done by placing them and then afterwards removing them)[/BCOLOR]
No point replying to this one
- [BCOLOR=#ffcc00]Ender Pearls and chorus fruits (luckily they are disabled on this server though)[/BCOLOR]
Make your walls higher, and you're building on peoples property if raiding factions try to make the wall higher. Surely you would want your walls to actually function as walls?
- [BCOLOR=#ffcc00]Using horses to jump over walls that you would otherwise not be able to jump over (while on this topic you could also try trapping peoples horses that try raiding your base by making the walls to high to jump over from the inside, are you allowed to keep the horse of whoever tried raiding you this way?)[/BCOLOR]
Make your wall higher.
- [BCOLOR=#ffcc00]Using rabbit potions to get around obstacles or walls[/BCOLOR]
I find this an amazing read and one of the first posts I saw that considers the issue from both sides of the argument and at the same time attempts to offer solutions to the problem after trying to identify the problems. I certainly see this one of the possible solutions although I will offer my two cents later in this post as well.
Ignoring the contradiction of the newly addressed issue of installing more plugins and then offering to fix this by installing plugins to allow players to check whether they got raided.
This does not solve the paranoia or players trying to cheat the system, for example: what if person A breaks into your base "accidentally" and then on non monitored channels tells person B how to get into someones base without breaking the rules. If you cannot proof player A's link to player B then player B has raided you legally, therefore there will be nothing you could do if you are the one supposed to monitor your own chests. Besides I'm pretty sure being able to check who uses certain chests can bring new exploits along.
When I joined this server I thought it operated on this premise, which I actually find flawed in the point where if someone raids you legally you cannot counter in any other way then being toxic.
This seems weird to me. Instead of being able to put blocks on my chests, on a server like this it sounds like the only thing you should do is break into other peoples bases and laugh while they watch you take everything they own and they cannot even attack you.
My Solution
As promised earlier I'd like to offer some ideas me and my friends thought of.
My earlier offered solution of mainly being able to lock chests still stands, but in order to prevent issues like the PvP community being shut down by chest locking I'd say to allow base raiding in certain conditions. You could say for example that two factions could agree to being raided and for this occasions mark a few chests with signs to be raided in this event. after agreeing on a time and place these factions could duke it out until either of them concedes and lets the other party raid them. A few simple rules to enforce this system would be to unlock the chest to the other faction and allowing each other to take a look inside of the raid chest so both parties can agree on the raid being reasonable. next to that both factions could also discus win conditions to their liking whether it be guerrilla warfare in the PvP zone or one on one duels of the faction members for example.
Another solution could be to allow people to opt into the PvP scene, in order to have a town in the PvP area and be allowed to actually raid others you'd have to found an outpost in the PvP zone yourself that offers sufficient loot for other people to raid, this raid able loot would have to be stored in an unlocked and accessible chest. there would have to be rules about what would be stored in a chest like this but I think an easy rule would be at least the amount emerald it takes to found your town (200 for starters, 1.2k for city's, 6.2k for empires). once you get raided and are unable to fund your raid chest within the next few days you'd lose the right to raid and will be asked to vacate the PvP zone within a reasonable amount of time. In a system like this I'd suggest to allow the raiding of others in the PvP zone if they do not own an official outpost to prevent people from locking chests freely in the PvP zone, if someone still does lock a chest within the PvP zone a mod can be asked to unlock and warn the person who locked it. With this system if someone gets raided and no one claims to be the raiders the mods only have to check 1 single unlocked chest in order to determine whether the raid was legal or not.
These solutions don't have to be exclusive and would offer in my opinion a more interesting and less toxic and abusable raid system then currently in place. But I'd love to hear other ideas or opinions about this matter even if they stray from my views on this topic.
EDIT:
TL;DR
Sorry forgot the TL;DR for some people, basically the issue isn't as black and white as I originally described it and this thread showed me that.
I propose a mutual agreement warring system tgt with chest locking so people can still PvP, also please refrain from baseless arguing and try going into discussion with each other and understand each other so we can find a solution that makes everyone happy.
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Kagamiiragi
Member
"I honestly don't see a need for a rule that prevents raiding in PvE as raiders are already declawed"
So why keep a handicapped version in anyway? Might as well go all the way.
"The only way to obtain invisibility is to switch and level a class for the purpose"
Which is what people do, and it's very annoying to be on the lookout for those guys 24/7
"yet refuse out of laziness"
It's not laziness, it's just unfun. I'm on the PvE side of the map, why am I forced through all these extra steps of locking up my base and chests just to play some minecraft? I don't even invite anybody over in my base, lest I accidently forgot to lock one of my 30 chests. It's a shame really.
"Stop expecting everyone to bend to your 'needs' when you already have the tools to fix the problem yourself."
First of all, looking at the votes right now (20 yes, 25 no) it seems that the 'everyone' you speak of is a minority. Secondly, to build a fun server and community one should be open for discussion and suggestions, the devs are also figuring out what exactly the perfect server would entail.
It's good to discuss and challenge the rules sometimes if people feel it's necassary, you shouldn't be trying to silence that by just saying "live with it".